[dart-misc] Dart & Swift

[kc]

// Declare an immutable binding to a new Point object:

// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);

// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)


One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.

K.

[Matt f]

I like it.

[Joao Pedrosa]

Hi,

Apple needed to revamp their language of choice. :-)

I like the name too, Swift. I hope it's as good as it sounds. :-)

I also like more succinct languages. Although given the literate
programming that Apple has always tried to adopt with descriptive and long
names and so on, that short sample was a nice surprise. I hope they got
more of it right too.

Cheers,
Joao

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.
--
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[Matt f]

I like that it can be used alongside Obj-C.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Hi,
Apple needed to revamp their language of choice. :-)
I like the name too, Swift. I hope it's as good as it sounds. :-)
I also like more succinct languages. Although given the literate
programming that Apple has always tried to adopt with descriptive and long
names and so on, that short sample was a nice surprise. I hope they got
more of it right too.
Cheers,
Joao

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.
--
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['Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc]

Of course you can leave the type annotation out of the Dart example, making
the comparison come down to "final" vs "let" and the "new" keyword. I might
or might not agree with you on which is better, but I don't think this
example is particularly meaningful.

Some of the more significant differences would be structs, blocks, static
typing and extension methods.

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.
--
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[kc]

Post by 'Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc
Of course you can leave the type annotation out of the Dart example,
making the comparison come down to "final" vs "let" and the "new" keyword.
I might or might not agree with you on which is better, but I don't think
this example is particularly meaningful.

'C' style type annotations encourage over-annotation on locals. Especially
by Java programmers.

Post by 'Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc
Some of the more significant differences would be structs, blocks, static
typing and extension methods.

Also patterns, tuples and a useful switch statement. With a live
programming/REPL environment.

K.

[Joao Pedrosa]

Hi,

It's good to think that in a time when iPads and phones rule the computers,
making the programmers to write long lines doesn't even fit on the screens
of some of those computers, if say the programmers were trying to program
using one of them.

I don't think Dart's idea of it's OK to write long names so long as the
Editor is helping you along the way fits into that picture. For example,
ever since Future usage became an issue in Dart, I lost all hope for
shorter lines. Since I can imagine that the difference between a normal
function and a Future function is big enough to warrant a perhaps complete
type declaration.

Can we imagine a programmer using his phone to write programs in the
future? Who knows.

Cheers,
Joao

Post by kc

Post by 'Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc
Of course you can leave the type annotation out of the Dart example,
making the comparison come down to "final" vs "let" and the "new" keyword.
I might or might not agree with you on which is better, but I don't think
this example is particularly meaningful.

'C' style type annotations encourage over-annotation on locals. Especially
by Java programmers.

Post by 'Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc
Some of the more significant differences would be structs, blocks, static
typing and extension methods.

Also patterns, tuples and a useful switch statement. With a live
programming/REPL environment.
K.
--
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[luu hoo]

And also, semicolon is optional.

圚 2014幎6月3日星期二UTC+8䞊午9时05分23秒kc写道

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[luu hoo]

And semicolon is optional.

圚 2014幎6月3日星期二UTC+8䞊午9时05分23秒kc写道

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

['Lasse R.H. Nielsen' via Dart Misc]

Go wins:

p := Point{0, 0}

Some of us do want Dart to be brief as well:
http://dartbug.com/18241

/L ''and I would also gladly accept the := declaration style"

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
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--
Lasse R.H. Nielsen - lrn-hpIqsD4AKlfQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org
'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine'
Google Denmark ApS - Frederiksborggade 20B, 1 sal - 1360 KÞbenhavn K
- Denmark - CVR nr. 28 86 69 84

[Bluenuance]

to be fair:

// Dart
final p = new Point(0,0);

is enough, which looks quite the same imho

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[George Moschovitis]

My thoughts. It's disheartening to see in Swift the language that Dart
could be.
The 'familiarity' goal was Dart's greatest mistake. Btw, Swift looks at
least as familiar to me as Dart.

-g.

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[Filipe Morgado]

My thoughts exactly. It's disheartening to see in Swift the language that
Dart could be.
Btw, Swift looks at least as 'familiar' to me as Dart.
-g.

+1

Enums, structs, extension methods, true generics, tuples, leniency, etc
It's missing a few details but it seems a lot more polished.

And being a native language (allegedly faster than Objective-C) should make
it 2x-4x faster than Dart.
Well, some say that perf matters.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Does it run in the browser?

Post by Filipe Morgado

My thoughts exactly. It's disheartening to see in Swift the language that
Dart could be.
Btw, Swift looks at least as 'familiar' to me as Dart.
-g.

+1
Enums, structs, extension methods, true generics, tuples, leniency, etc
It's missing a few details but it seems a lot more polished.
And being a native language (allegedly faster than Objective-C) should
make it 2x-4x faster than Dart.
Well, some say that perf matters.

[Filipe Morgado]

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Does it run in the browser?

Nope. Native compilation only, alongside objective-C.

I don't think it would be easy to transpile it to JS, but a Swift VM would
certainly work very well.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

I didn't expect it ;-)
I guess Swift is more comparable to Go then.

Post by Filipe Morgado

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Does it run in the browser?

Nope. Native compilation only, alongside objective-C.
I don't think it would be easy to transpile it to JS, but a Swift VM would
certainly work very well.

[Filipe Morgado]

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I didn't expect it ;-)
I guess Swift is more comparable to Go then.

I guess, but ...

Swift will be primarily used for mobile/desktop apps, which is pretty much
the same (long-term) niche as Dart.
Swift will be well ahead for being more performant and having an efficient
UI instead of the DOM.

Despite a few semantic differences, I find the two languages very similar.
With a few tweaks (structs, nullable types, native arithmetic, optional GC,
etc), Dart could make for an awesome systems programming language as well.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

I guess Swift is Apply only or will apps built with it run on Windows,
Linux, Android, Ardoino, ...?
For me only Swift is in a niche.

Post by Filipe Morgado

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I didn't expect it ;-)
I guess Swift is more comparable to Go then.

I guess, but ...
Swift will be primarily used for mobile/desktop apps, which is pretty much
the same (long-term) niche as Dart.
Swift will be well ahead for being more performant and having an efficient
UI instead of the DOM.
Despite a few semantic differences, I find the two languages very similar.
With a few tweaks (structs, nullable types, native arithmetic, optional
GC, etc), Dart could make for an awesome systems programming language as
well.

['Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc]

Ladislav forgot to add too:


- Dart is open-source.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I guess Swift is Apply only or will apps built with it run on Windows,
Linux, Android, Ardoino, ...?
For me only Swift is in a niche.

Post by Filipe Morgado

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I didn't expect it ;-)
I guess Swift is more comparable to Go then.

I guess, but ...
Swift will be primarily used for mobile/desktop apps, which is pretty
much the same (long-term) niche as Dart.
Swift will be well ahead for being more performant and having an
efficient UI instead of the DOM.
Despite a few semantic differences, I find the two languages very similar.
With a few tweaks (structs, nullable types, native arithmetic, optional
GC, etc), Dart could make for an awesome systems programming language as
well.

--
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[Matthew Butler]

Post by 'Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc
- Dart is open-source.

And going through a standards body on top of it.

[Ladislav Thon]

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by 'Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc
- Dart is open-source.

And going through a standards body on top of it.

Both correct. Omitting those was a mistake I made, having too narrow focus.
Also, calling a language Swift when there is another language called Swift
that has a swiftlang.org domain is just irresponsible.

LT

[kc]

My thoughts exactly. It's disheartening to see in Swift the language that
Dart could be.
Btw, Swift looks at least as 'familiar' to me as Dart.
-g.

Totally agree.

This idée fixe "be familiar with Java" has been an albatross around Dart's
neck. Early adopters are looking for something both richer and simpler
while jobbing Java dev's follow early adopters. Catch 22.

K.

[Ladislav Thon]

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.

This is really cheap. This is how javascript kiddies compare their
languages. We, grownups, at least look at language features. For example,
here are some things that Swift has:

- extensions
- nullable/non-nullable types with null-safe calls
- pattern matching
- tuples
- enums (though they look a bit strange, serving 2 or 3 different
purposes at once)
- ability to create a new instance of generic type
- structures ... I mean, value types (yea, sure, scalar replacement...)
- *understandable* function parameters (optional params, named params,
variadic params, passing by reference)
- arbitrary parameters for [] and []=

On the other hand, Dart has:

- arbitrary-precision ints
- mixins
- isolates (OK, this one will be an advantage once they start to make
sense, which is barely starting to happen)
- library-based privacy (heck, I don't remember seeing anything about
privacy in Swift language guide, am I blind?)
- implicitly defined interfaces
- no operator overloading (yes, I consider the inability to define
operator +<+>+ an advantage!)
- automatic memory handling via GC (ARC gives you deterministic
finalization, which is nice, but the way they solve the cycle problem looks
really subpar)
- consistent handling of method parameters (in Swift, by default, no
parameter is named for functions, all but the 1st are named for methods and
all are named for initializers; it makes sense given historical context,
but is still fairly arbitrary and can easily be very confusing to people)

Note that this is based on a pretty quick glance over the Swift language
guide, zero experience in actually using the language, so I might have
easily missed or misunderstood a lot of stuff. (Not that you didn't.)

LT

[kc]

Post by Ladislav Thon
This is really cheap. This is how javascript kiddies compare their
languages. We, grownups, at least look at language features.

The point re 'final/new' is that Swift made the right syntax call. Whereas
Dart stuck with a core Java-ism, which turns away potential developers.
Especially scripters - kiddy or otherwise.

In the Swift WWDC presentation the 'regular and composable' syntax of Swift
was emphasized more than once. Gilad Bracha when asked what the most
important feature of a programming languages was, replied 'c*omposability*'.
Dart's Java-isms detract from it's composability, make growing the language
more complex and hide it's good clean core semantics.

K.

[Ladislav Thon]

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon
This is really cheap. This is how javascript kiddies compare their
languages. We, grownups, at least look at language features.

The point re 'final/new' is that Swift made the right syntax call. Whereas
Dart stuck with a core Java-ism, which turns away potential developers.
Especially scripters - kiddy or otherwise.

Oh come on, this gets really old. This is a language designed for large
applications and teams -- a little bit of discomfort in scripting
situations is a good price to pay (note that the focus is on *little* here).
Also, please compare

public class Main {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello, world!");
}
}

with

main() {
print("Hello, world!");
}

and then tell me about Java-isms. Dart is in fact not bad for scripting,
though I will agree that the discomfort is there.

Post by kc
In the Swift WWDC presentation the 'regular and composable' syntax of
Swift was emphasized more than once. Gilad Bracha when asked what the most
important feature of a programming languages was, replied 'c*omposability*'.
Dart's Java-isms detract from it's composability, make growing the language
more complex and hide it's good clean core semantics.

What I think of *composable syntax* is nothing like mainstream languages
syntax have (see e.g. JetBrains Nitra or JetBrains MPS for industry-ready
examples of composable syntax). Swift, like Dart, doesn't really care about
composable syntax (no matter what they say on a conference) -- if they did,
they'd at least unify expressions and statements. Which, AFAIK, they didn't.

LT

[kc]

Post by Ladislav Thon
Oh come on, this gets really old. This is a language designed for large
applications and teams -- a little bit of discomfort in scripting
situations is a good price to pay (note that the focus is on *little* here).

Dart's language designer seems to prefer:

- function return types on the rhs with '->'
- no 'new'. Maybe 'const' as a modifier for immutability.
- val/let instead of 'final' for immutable bindings (if not immutable by
default)
- elements of Scala syntax (if not Newspeak)
Possibly Scala/C# 6.0 primary constructors

This gives something both parsable/toolable and easy on the eye:

class Point(int x, int y);

myfunction(int a, int b)-> Point {

var x = a;
let y = b;

return Point(x,y);

}

// n.b this is apart from whether type annotations should be rhs (with or
without a colon).



The interesting aspect of Dart is the core semantics with a new runtime to
compete against the JS, Java and Dotnet VM's that dominate the landscape.
The syntax is almost incidental - but why obscure the semantics under
Java-isms? The Swift syntax was a reminder of a missed opportunity.

K.

[Siddhartha Gadgil]

Good to hear that Dart language designers like scala syntax. I do miss a
few scala features in Dart:
(1) Case classes - especially overriding of equality and toString()
(2) flatMap and flatten
(3) The for statement sugar for combinations of map, flatMap and filter.

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon
Oh come on, this gets really old. This is a language designed for large
applications and teams -- a little bit of discomfort in scripting
situations is a good price to pay (note that the focus is on *little* here).

- function return types on the rhs with '->'
- no 'new'. Maybe 'const' as a modifier for immutability.
- val/let instead of 'final' for immutable bindings (if not immutable by
default)
- elements of Scala syntax (if not Newspeak)
Possibly Scala/C# 6.0 primary constructors
class Point(int x, int y);
myfunction(int a, int b)-> Point {
var x = a;
let y = b;
return Point(x,y);
}
// n.b this is apart from whether type annotations should be rhs (with or
without a colon).
The interesting aspect of Dart is the core semantics with a new runtime to
compete against the JS, Java and Dotnet VM's that dominate the landscape.
The syntax is almost incidental - but why obscure the semantics under
Java-isms? The Swift syntax was a reminder of a missed opportunity.
K.

[Greg Lowe]

2) I believe iterable.expand() is the equivalent of flatMap().

https://api.dartlang.org/apidocs/channels/stable/dartdoc-viewer/dart-core.Iterable#id_expand

Post by Siddhartha Gadgil
Good to hear that Dart language designers like scala syntax. I do miss a
(1) Case classes - especially overriding of equality and toString()
(2) flatMap and flatten
(3) The for statement sugar for combinations of map, flatMap and filter.

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon
Oh come on, this gets really old. This is a language designed for large
applications and teams -- a little bit of discomfort in scripting
situations is a good price to pay (note that the focus is on *little* here).

- function return types on the rhs with '->'
- no 'new'. Maybe 'const' as a modifier for immutability.
- val/let instead of 'final' for immutable bindings (if not immutable by
default)
- elements of Scala syntax (if not Newspeak)
Possibly Scala/C# 6.0 primary constructors
class Point(int x, int y);
myfunction(int a, int b)-> Point {
var x = a;
let y = b;
return Point(x,y);
}
// n.b this is apart from whether type annotations should be rhs (with or
without a colon).
The interesting aspect of Dart is the core semantics with a new runtime
to compete against the JS, Java and Dotnet VM's that dominate the
landscape. The syntax is almost incidental - but why obscure the semantics
under Java-isms? The Swift syntax was a reminder of a missed opportunity.
K.

[Siddhartha Gadgil]

Thanks. I will start using it.

Post by Greg Lowe
2) I believe iterable.expand() is the equivalent of flatMap().
https://api.dartlang.org/apidocs/channels/stable/dartdoc-viewer/dart-core.Iterable#id_expand

Post by Siddhartha Gadgil
Good to hear that Dart language designers like scala syntax. I do miss a
(1) Case classes - especially overriding of equality and toString()
(2) flatMap and flatten
(3) The for statement sugar for combinations of map, flatMap and filter.

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon
Oh come on, this gets really old. This is a language designed for large
applications and teams -- a little bit of discomfort in scripting
situations is a good price to pay (note that the focus is on *little* here).

- function return types on the rhs with '->'
- no 'new'. Maybe 'const' as a modifier for immutability.
- val/let instead of 'final' for immutable bindings (if not immutable by
default)
- elements of Scala syntax (if not Newspeak)
Possibly Scala/C# 6.0 primary constructors
class Point(int x, int y);
myfunction(int a, int b)-> Point {
var x = a;
let y = b;
return Point(x,y);
}
// n.b this is apart from whether type annotations should be rhs (with
or without a colon).
The interesting aspect of Dart is the core semantics with a new runtime
to compete against the JS, Java and Dotnet VM's that dominate the
landscape. The syntax is almost incidental - but why obscure the semantics
under Java-isms? The Swift syntax was a reminder of a missed opportunity.
K.

--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new

[kc]

Post by Ladislav Thon

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon
This is really cheap. This is how javascript kiddies compare their
languages. We, grownups, at least look at language features.

The point re 'final/new' is that Swift made the right syntax call.
Whereas Dart stuck with a core Java-ism, which turns away potential
developers. Especially scripters - kiddy or otherwise.

Oh come on, this gets really old. This is a language designed for large
applications and teams -- a little bit of discomfort in scripting
situations is a good price to pay (note that the focus is on *little* here).
Also, please compare

You used to be the biggest Dartisan around. Looks like your new love is
Kotlin. Let's have a glance at Kotlin syntax:

class Point(x: Int, y: Int)

fun getPoint(x: Int): Point {
var y
y = a * 2
return Point(x,y)
}

val pt = getPoint(1)



Syntax features:
- succinct immutable binding syntax 'val'
- no 'new'
- class primary constructors (also in C# 6.0)
- type annotations on rhs

This syntax - *not* the full-on type system of Kotlin (or Scala) - also
fits in with the underlying theory/semantics of Dart. Would help make the
sale that type annotations are *just* annotations.

There's a reason Kotlin, Swift, Rust, Scala, TypeScript/ES6 are moving in a
certain direction. How can Swift - an AOT native language - have, in some
respects, a lighter, richer syntax than Dart.

K.

[Alex Tatumizer]

I think most of archaic features in dart stem from "familiarity" principle.
Other languages moved on, Now declaration syntax, mandatory "breaks" in
switch statement, mandatory "new" already look slightly outdated.
But things don't stop here. Probably same principle of "familiarity" (the
meaning of which is a subject of speculation) dictated the preference for
declarative frameworks like angular - weird, amateurish attempt to enhance
HTML by building a clumsy programming language on top of it. Is this a
right way to showcase dart? If dart is not good enough to formulate API for
UI programming, then what's the point of the language? Angular+javascript
is not much different from angular+dart anyway, it's still the same cake,
why would anyone want to switch?

Naturally, polymer follows in footsteps of angular, trying to define yet
another language. And to those curious when to use which, the advice is to
use BOTH (!). Plus dart, compiled to javascript.

This angular thing is something that disappoints me much more than slightly
outdated syntax.

[Greg Lowe]

Post by Alex Tatumizer
mandatory "new"

There's a bug for optional new/const:

https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=18241

I've heard one complication for making new optional is it's required in the
grammar so that you can add generic type parameters to constructor calls.

But if generic functions are added this problem would go away I guess.

https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=254

Post by Alex Tatumizer
I think most of archaic features in dart stem from "familiarity"
principle. Other languages moved on, Now declaration syntax, mandatory
"breaks" in switch statement, mandatory "new" already look slightly
outdated.
But things don't stop here. Probably same principle of "familiarity" (the
meaning of which is a subject of speculation) dictated the preference for
declarative frameworks like angular - weird, amateurish attempt to enhance
HTML by building a clumsy programming language on top of it. Is this a
right way to showcase dart? If dart is not good enough to formulate API for
UI programming, then what's the point of the language? Angular+javascript
is not much different from angular+dart anyway, it's still the same cake,
why would anyone want to switch?
Naturally, polymer follows in footsteps of angular, trying to define yet
another language. And to those curious when to use which, the advice is to
use BOTH (!). Plus dart, compiled to javascript.
This angular thing is something that disappoints me much more than
slightly outdated syntax.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new

[Sean Eagan]

Post by Greg Lowe

Post by Alex Tatumizer
mandatory "new"

https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=18241

Note that terseness is one aspect of http://dartbug.com/18241, but the more
important aspect is making "const" much more usable by:

* allowing for const methods, operators, and properties (other than those
explitily defined in the language spec)
* determining constness at callsites instead of declaration sites, which
for example would allow const constructors to call other const
constructors, which is currently not possible.

Post by Greg Lowe
I've heard one complication for making new optional is it's required in
the grammar so that you can add generic type parameters to constructor
calls.

Assume the call in question is `Foo<int>()`. If `Foo` represents...

*A constructor:* Then clearly it's a constructor call, no need for
new/const.
*Something other than a constructor (e.g. a method):* compile error.
*Invalid identifier:* compile warning / runtime error.

And since the naming convention for classes (UpperCamelCase) differs from
that of everything else (lowerCamelCase) in dart, it's generally easy for
humans to discern that `Foo` is a class, and thus that `Foo()` is a
constructor call without new/const as well, even without the aid of
semantic highlighting in an editor.

But if generic functions are added this problem would go away I guess.

Post by Greg Lowe
https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=254

http://dartbug.com/18241 should make generic functions *slightly* less
necessary, since you no longer would want to create top-level generic
methods which merely redirect to constructors just to avoid the tax of `new
` at call sites.

Post by Greg Lowe

Post by Alex Tatumizer
I think most of archaic features in dart stem from "familiarity"
principle. Other languages moved on, Now declaration syntax, mandatory
"breaks" in switch statement, mandatory "new" already look slightly
outdated.
But things don't stop here. Probably same principle of "familiarity" (the
meaning of which is a subject of speculation) dictated the preference for
declarative frameworks like angular - weird, amateurish attempt to enhance
HTML by building a clumsy programming language on top of it. Is this a
right way to showcase dart? If dart is not good enough to formulate API for
UI programming, then what's the point of the language? Angular+javascript
is not much different from angular+dart anyway, it's still the same cake,
why would anyone want to switch?
Naturally, polymer follows in footsteps of angular, trying to define yet
another language. And to those curious when to use which, the advice is to
use BOTH (!). Plus dart, compiled to javascript.
This angular thing is something that disappoints me much more than
slightly outdated syntax.
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[Ladislav Thon]

Post by Alex Tatumizer
I think most of archaic features in dart stem from "familiarity"
principle. Other languages moved on, Now declaration syntax, mandatory
"breaks" in switch statement, mandatory "new" already look slightly
outdated.
But things don't stop here. Probably same principle of "familiarity" (the
meaning of which is a subject of speculation) dictated the preference for
declarative frameworks like angular - weird, amateurish attempt to enhance
HTML by building a clumsy programming language on top of it. Is this a
right way to showcase dart? If dart is not good enough to formulate API for
UI programming, then what's the point of the language? Angular+javascript
is not much different from angular+dart anyway, it's still the same cake,
why would anyone want to switch?
Naturally, polymer follows in footsteps of angular, trying to define yet
another language. And to those curious when to use which, the advice is to
use BOTH (!). Plus dart, compiled to javascript.
This angular thing is something that disappoints me much more than
slightly outdated syntax.

Huge +1.

Also, I've seen that you still work on Circuit. That's admirable. Never
give up, never surrender!

LT

[Ladislav Thon]

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon
This is really cheap. This is how javascript kiddies compare their
languages. We, grownups, at least look at language features.

The point re 'final/new' is that Swift made the right syntax call.
Whereas Dart stuck with a core Java-ism, which turns away potential
developers. Especially scripters - kiddy or otherwise.

Oh come on, this gets really old. This is a language designed for large
applications and teams -- a little bit of discomfort in scripting
situations is a good price to pay (note that the focus is on *little* here).
Also, please compare

You used to be the biggest Dartisan around. Looks like your new love is
Kotlin.

Ahem...

Post by kc
class Point(x: Int, y: Int)
fun getPoint(x: Int): Point {
var y: Int
y = a * 2
return Point(x,y)
}
val pt = getPoint(1)
- succinct immutable binding syntax 'val'
- no 'new'
- class primary constructors (also in C# 6.0)
- type annotations on rhs
This syntax - *not* the full-on type system of Kotlin (or Scala) - also
fits in with the underlying theory/semantics of Dart. Would help make the
sale that type annotations are *just* annotations.
There's a reason Kotlin, Swift, Rust, Scala, TypeScript/ES6 are moving in
a certain direction. How can Swift - an AOT native language - have, in some
respects, a lighter, richer syntax than Dart.

There's a whole lot of things I don't exactly like on Dart, on Kotlin, and
on all languages I ever used. It would probably be even in a language that
I would design :-) (No, I'm not working on anything like that. I don't have
the skills.)

For example, I *hate* constructors in Kotlin and I strongly believe that
the only language that got constructors right is Dart. (I still don't
understand how can anyone consider *class Point(var x, var y)* readable,
and even explain it like "you know, the class is like a function...", which
is an explanation that works surpsingly well for generics, an entirely
different topic.) I also hate the need of the *fun* keyword -- I shouldn't
have to write that. Compare:

fun main(args: Array<String>) {
println("Hello, world")
}

with

main() {
print("Hello, world");
}

Who's succint now?

And in case you asked -- no, I don't think these are a fair comparison. I
also don't think your purely syntax-based comparison is valid. I mean --
for me, the things you are so passionate about are nothing but fassion. I'm
not interested in that, even though I strongly believe that syntax is very
very important.

LT

P.S.: I also used to be very passionate about left-hand side vs. right-hand
side type annotations, back in the days when I first moved from Pascal to
C. I've grown a bit since then.

[kc]

Post by Ladislav Thon
For example, I *hate* constructors in Kotlin and I strongly believe that
the only language that got constructors right is Dart. (I still don't
understand how can anyone consider *class Point(var x, var y)* readable,
and even explain it like "you know, the class is like a function...", which
is an explanation that works surpsingly well for generics, an entirely
different topic.)

C# 6.0 thinks differently. Great syntax for immutable POD's.

Post by Ladislav Thon
I also hate the need of the *fun* keyword -- I shouldn't have to write
fun main(args: Array<String>) {
println("Hello, world")
}
with
main() {
print("Hello, world");
}
Who's succint now?

Not much bothered about 'fun' (though Kotlin, Rust, Go and Swift chose
different). However, a fair comparison of Kotlin-ish syntax skinned on Dart
semantics:

fun main() {
print("Hello, world");
}

Also 'fun':
- indicates a new binding
- can trigger a text expansion
- leaves syntax space for new keywords, trailing closure/block syntax or
even macros
- is easy to eyeball

It's not succinct for it's own sake. It's the right combination of
succinct, readable and parsable/toolable.

I also don't think your purely syntax-based comparison is valid.
Sure. It's what lies beneath the syntax that is important - semantics and
runtime. The significant part of Dart is the Dart VM - and it's dart2js
trojan horse. The editor and analyser could be done by the community and
tool vendors. But the community and tool vendors can't create a new VM and
get it into Googles client platforms. Syntax helps makes the sale.

Post by Ladislav Thon
I mean -- for me, the things you are so passionate about are nothing but
fassion. I'm not interested in that,

Saw a video of a Dart presentation you gave. So on this we agree.

LT

Post by Ladislav Thon
P.S.: I also used to be very passionate about left-hand side vs.
right-hand side type annotations, back in the days when I first moved from
Pascal to C. I've grown a bit since then.

It's not so much lhs/rhs. It's that Dart's current Java/C type annotation
syntax encourages over-annotation especially on locals. And given Dart's
optional/pluggable approach to types and the fact that in Dart everything
is an object which has intrinsic security properties it unnecessarily
encourages developers to sweat the types.

K.

[Ladislav Thon]

Post by Ladislav Thon
P.S.: I also used to be very passionate about left-hand side vs.

Post by Ladislav Thon
right-hand side type annotations, back in the days when I first moved from
Pascal to C. I've grown a bit since then.

It's not so much lhs/rhs. It's that Dart's current Java/C type annotation
syntax encourages over-annotation especially on locals. And given Dart's
optional/pluggable approach to types and the fact that in Dart everything
is an object which has intrinsic security properties it unnecessarily
encourages developers to sweat the types.

Does it? Last time I checked, it was a convention in the Dart land to avoid
annotations on locals, just like in languages with local inference (Scala,
Kotlin, Swift?). This, IMHO, strikes the best balance -- types makes a *lot* of
sense on API boundary, not that much inside the implementation.

LT

[Günter Zöchbauer]

I tried to follow this guideline but very frequently found bugs when not
using concrete types on local variables.
Especially for something like

var x = y ? getR() : s;

Dart doesn't warn about anything you do with x afterwards;
This caused a lot of troubles when porting a large codebase from JavaScript
to Dart (a lot of runtime exceptions).
Therefore I add types everywhere. String, int and SomeType are not longer
than var most of the time.
When I later change anything (the return type of getValue() for example)
the analyzer immediately shows which parts of the code are affected.

There are feature requests to make the analyzer warn when it can't reliably
infer the type of an expression.

- https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=17945
- https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=16157
- https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=14600
- https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=9401

But a recent bug report showed that this wouldn't help much because the
analyzer already infers a type from the above expression (the least common
denominator - which doesn't help much either). So type annotation
everywhere is the only answer to allow the analyzer to be helpful.

Post by Ladislav Thon
P.S.: I also used to be very passionate about left-hand side vs.

Post by kc

Post by Ladislav Thon
right-hand side type annotations, back in the days when I first moved from
Pascal to C. I've grown a bit since then.

It's not so much lhs/rhs. It's that Dart's current Java/C type annotation
syntax encourages over-annotation especially on locals. And given Dart's
optional/pluggable approach to types and the fact that in Dart everything
is an object which has intrinsic security properties it unnecessarily
encourages developers to sweat the types.

Does it? Last time I checked, it was a convention in the Dart land to
avoid annotations on locals, just like in languages with local inference
(Scala, Kotlin, Swift?). This, IMHO, strikes the best balance -- types
makes a *lot* of sense on API boundary, not that much inside the
implementation.
LT

[kc]

On Monday, June 9, 2014 2:29:05 PM UTC+1, Ladislav Thon wrote:

Does it? Last time I checked, it was a convention in the Dart land to avoid

Post by Ladislav Thon
annotations on locals, just like in languages with local inference (Scala,
Kotlin, Swift?).

Well yes. Even the examples on the dartlang.org front page have annotations
on locals. See 'Testing':

Point a = new Point(2, 15);
Point b = new Point(7, 3);

The jobbing Java dev will read this and add 'final' for the trifecta.

In the Java/C# world the developer has to get past the compiler in order to
generate byte code. And static types can offer performance optimizations.

Whereas the Dart deal is - no byte code, everything is an object. Feel free
to ignore warnings if needs be. Because type annotations are just
annotations. Even roll your own analyser. Nice. (Though I like Swift syntax
in some ways the move away from the dynamism of Objective C is a negative).


This, IMHO, strikes the best balance -- types makes a *lot* of sense on API

Post by Ladislav Thon
boundary, not that much inside the implementation.

Totally agree. But *convention* needs to be backed up by *syntax*.

And a great convention is that bindings for function parameters and the
for-loop index should be immutable. Swift get this succinctly right. Dart -
use final.

K.

[Alex Tatumizer]

The problem of "final", other than the word is too long, is that it has
some implicit exclamation mark attached to it (like someone saying: watch
out, this thing is final!). It draws too much attention, which is not
deserved because most of the things we declare are "final".

That's where syntax interferes with semantics. Syntax is never syntax only
- it carries some (implicit or explicit) meaning.

Plus, the problem of style. I think Kotlin chose "fun" instead of "func"
because now all 3 declarations (var, val and fun) are 3-letter keywords.
They "rhyme" better.

Post by Ladislav Thon
Also, I've seen that you still work on Circuit. That's admirable. Never

give up, never surrender!

Yeah, Circuit turned to be a hard sell. Maybe it's too unfamiliar. Or it's
too circular for angular world.
Or perhaps I'm just not a good salesman.
Anyway, glad to see you back!

[Filipe Morgado]

Post by Alex Tatumizer
The problem of "final", other than the word is too long, is that it has
some implicit exclamation mark attached to it (like someone saying: watch
out, this thing is final!). It draws too much attention, which is not
deserved because most of the things we declare are "final".

I like that "attention". When in Scala, I very often mistake "val" for
"var" (or vice-versa). "Final" makes it more explicit.
Coming from AS3, I like the "var point:Point" syntax, rather than C-style.
There will always be diverging opinions on every detail.

I agree with a few comments upwards ... In the end, these details don't
matter. I'm not less productive because of them.

[Alex Tatumizer]

My point was that "var" deserves implicit exclamation mark (and attention)
much more.

[kc]

Post by Filipe Morgado

Post by Alex Tatumizer
The problem of "final", other than the word is too long, is that it has
some implicit exclamation mark attached to it (like someone saying: watch
out, this thing is final!). It draws too much attention, which is not
deserved because most of the things we declare are "final".

I like that "attention". When in Scala, I very often mistake "val" for
"var" (or vice-versa). "Final" makes it more explicit.
Coming from AS3, I like the "var point:Point" syntax, rather than C-style.
There will always be diverging opinions on every detail.

Swift seemed to get it right:

var x = 1; // mutable
let y = 2; // immutable
var x:int; // mutable with annotation because no initializer

Post by Filipe Morgado
I agree with a few comments upwards ... In the end, these details don't
matter. I'm not less productive because of them.

Early adopters have made a platform bet. But the bet could be better if the
syntax was more immediately appealing. To give Dart a wider audience and
more adoption.

K.

[Charles Forsyth]

I didn't see anything about concurrency, but I might have missed it.

[Filipe Morgado]

Supposedly the same as Objective-C.

Post by Charles Forsyth
I didn't see anything about concurrency, but I might have missed it.

[Gen]

Swift seems to have roots in the natural science field.
http://swift-lang.org/
I do not know how or why Apple chose that language for its future.

Post by Filipe Morgado
Supposedly the same as Objective-C.

Post by Charles Forsyth
I didn't see anything about concurrency, but I might have missed it.

['Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc]

I see no connection between that Swift and Apple's.

Post by Gen
Swift seems to have roots in the natural science field.
http://swift-lang.org/
I do not know how or why Apple chose that language for its future.

Post by Filipe Morgado
Supposedly the same as Objective-C.

Post by Charles Forsyth
I didn't see anything about concurrency, but I might have missed it.

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[Gen]

I got the message wrong ;)
There was a link at the bottom of the page
https://developer.apple.com/swift/

Post by 'Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc
I see no connection between that Swift and Apple's.

Post by Gen
Swift seems to have roots in the natural science field.
http://swift-lang.org/
I do not know how or why Apple chose that language for its future.

Post by Filipe Morgado
Supposedly the same as Objective-C.

Post by Charles Forsyth
I didn't see anything about concurrency, but I might have missed it.

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[Clovis Lemes Ferreira Junior]

I found this article

http://glaforge.appspot.com/article/apple-s-swift-programming-language-inspired-by-groovy

Post by Gen
I got the message wrong ;)
There was a link at the bottom of the page
https://developer.apple.com/swift/

Post by 'Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc
I see no connection between that Swift and Apple's.

Post by Gen
Swift seems to have roots in the natural science field.
http://swift-lang.org/
I do not know how or why Apple chose that language for its future.

Post by Filipe Morgado
Supposedly the same as Objective-C.

Post by Charles Forsyth
I didn't see anything about concurrency, but I might have missed it.

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Clóvis Lemes Ferreira Júnior

[Gen]

Thanks.

As far as I can see, Swift is a modern Objective C without C.
And Swift remains limited to Apple and their OS.
So I am not excited about that language.


Am Dienstag, 3. Juni 2014 21:09:47 UTC+2 schrieb Clovis Lemes Ferreira

Post by Clovis Lemes Ferreira Junior
I found this article
http://glaforge.appspot.com/article/apple-s-swift-programming-language-inspired-by-groovy

Post by Gen
I got the message wrong ;)
There was a link at the bottom of the page
https://developer.apple.com/swift/

Post by 'Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc
I see no connection between that Swift and Apple's.

Post by Gen
Swift seems to have roots in the natural science field.
http://swift-lang.org/
I do not know how or why Apple chose that language for its future.

Post by Filipe Morgado
Supposedly the same as Objective-C.

Post by Charles Forsyth
I didn't see anything about concurrency, but I might have missed it.

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[Matt f]

I like it. Simpler, more to the point. Hehe puns.

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[Daniel Morilha]

One is intend to replace java and run everywhere (including browser) the
other resembles javascript and locks you down into a specific platform.

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.
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[Monty Rasmussen]

An Apple-only language? Pass.

[Jacob Goodson]

It does have interactivity(playground), which Dart is supposed to have some
day...

Post by Monty Rasmussen
An Apple-only language? Pass.

['Peter Ahé' via Dart Misc]

Eventually, I'd like Dart to have something like
http://worrydream.com/#!/InventingOnPrinciple

You can follow my progress on Google+, for example:
https://plus.google.com/104729279175870053531/posts/eGdSfRjMM26

Cheers,
Peter

Post by Jacob Goodson
It does have interactivity(playground), which Dart is supposed to have
some day...

Post by Monty Rasmussen
An Apple-only language? Pass.

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[Anders Holmgren]

thanks for the link. I think this is a great vision for what can be done.
Excited to see where this goes

Post by 'Peter Ahé' via Dart Misc
Eventually, I'd like Dart to have something like
http://worrydream.com/#!/InventingOnPrinciple
https://plus.google.com/104729279175870053531/posts/eGdSfRjMM26
Cheers,
Peter

Post by Jacob Goodson
It does have interactivity(playground), which Dart is supposed to have
some day...

Post by Monty Rasmussen
An Apple-only language? Pass.

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[David Kopec]

I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no competition
between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different markets. Nobody
will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for the foreseeable
future.

If we zoom out a bit, and don't get caught in the weeds looking at very
specific features or syntax, it's actually interesting how much the two
have in common. Both are elegant object-oriented languages with clear
influence from the functional realm. Both actually improve on performance
over their predecessors (Dart over JavaScript and Swift over Objective-C).
Both were developed by world class engineers at large corporations with
cutting edge previous language implementation experience (V8 guys at
Google, LLVM guys at Apple).

Personally I'm very excited about both of them - no need to pit them
against each other. They represent best-of-what's-out-there for their
respective silos. And yes, open-source or not, they are effectively silos.
I can't develop a native iOS app in Dart for now, and I can't develop a
web app in Swift for now, and I can't develop a native Windows app in
either easily. Silos. But damn good silos and we should be excited that a
new generation of excellent industry supported languages has come about.

[kc]

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no competition
between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different markets. Nobody
will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for the foreseeable
future.

I get that.

Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple will
eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).

Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.

Different markets.

But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.

Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.

And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple to
have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.

K.

[peteroc]

Someone made the following comment on the HN thread about Swift

"Worth noting that one of the greatest problems in software development is
concurrency support and its ease of use/robustness. It is a critical and
growing issue.
In contrast, having or not having generics, optionals (in C# these are
nullable types), algebraic data types (which in Go is interface, albiet
minus the type set checking) make a marginal, vanishingly small difference
in programmer productivity or application performance/stability. 99% of the
articles about the profound importance of generics are people building
nothing of interest for anyone, and it is exactly that vaguery of design
that makes generics seem so important."

Even though the quote references something that seems as fundamental as
generics its probably correct. They make a marginal difference. Even in
dart they make a marginal difference relative to its main features which
are a toolable fast consistent OO language with flexible typing that runs
in all web browsers. Certainly I think that the features you listed
(pattern matching, tuples, succinct consts) would make very little
difference indeed to my daily productivity. They are clever but not really
useful and in the case of the first two will actually add cognitive
overhead to learning and using the language (e.g. when should I use an ADT
instead of an object?). You start to sweat things that make little
difference when you should be concentrating on getting your product
finished. Leave the sweating to the language connoisseurs on reddit - they
seem to have little else to do.

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no competition
between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different markets. Nobody
will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for the foreseeable
future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple will
eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple to
have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

[kc]

Post by peteroc
Someone made the following comment on the HN thread about Swift
"Worth noting that one of the greatest problems in software development is
concurrency support and its ease of use/robustness. It is a critical and
growing issue.

True. Eight core Arm64 soon enough.

Post by peteroc
You start to sweat things that make little difference when you should be
concentrating on getting your product finished. Leave the sweating to the
language connoisseurs on reddit - they seem to have little else to do.

The dev's who are using Dart are maybe self-selecting - they don't mind
some familiar boilerplate in exchange for not dealing with JS crazyness.
But there's another set - the connoisseurs - who won't give the language a
go because of it.

K.

[peteroc]

OK. However I'm trying to interest some people in work in using dart for a
project. They like their languages but I know that these kinds of
relatively minor features will be the last thing they look at when deciding
whether to use it. Instead it will be darts major features as a language
along with performance, portability, and long term support and usage base.
I imagine that its the same for most people who are going to build
something reasonably large and reasonably long lived. If they are going to
reject dart it won't be because of e.g. pattern matching, tuples, succinct
consts. In other words if you are going to use dart for a primary project
you are going to use it anyway. These features will make no difference.

Post by kc

Post by peteroc
Someone made the following comment on the HN thread about Swift
"Worth noting that one of the greatest problems in software development
is concurrency support and its ease of use/robustness. It is a critical and
growing issue.

True. Eight core Arm64 soon enough.

Post by peteroc
You start to sweat things that make little difference when you should be
concentrating on getting your product finished. Leave the sweating to the
language connoisseurs on reddit - they seem to have little else to do.

The dev's who are using Dart are maybe self-selecting - they don't mind
some familiar boilerplate in exchange for not dealing with JS crazyness.
But there's another set - the connoisseurs - who won't give the language a
go because of it.
K.

[Jacob Goodson]

That is a nice quote. You are true when you say that most of the sugary
syntactic things we do are of little use for day to day programming. I too,
have gotten caught up the "superiority" of print "hello world" in the past.
The next big language will prob not be a language at all but a run-time;
one that makes concurrency as naive as garbage collection is now.

Post by peteroc
Someone made the following comment on the HN thread about Swift
"Worth noting that one of the greatest problems in software development is
concurrency support and its ease of use/robustness. It is a critical and
growing issue.
In contrast, having or not having generics, optionals (in C# these are
nullable types), algebraic data types (which in Go is interface, albiet
minus the type set checking) make a marginal, vanishingly small difference
in programmer productivity or application performance/stability. 99% of the
articles about the profound importance of generics are people building
nothing of interest for anyone, and it is exactly that vaguery of design
that makes generics seem so important."
Even though the quote references something that seems as fundamental as
generics its probably correct. They make a marginal difference. Even in
dart they make a marginal difference relative to its main features which
are a toolable fast consistent OO language with flexible typing that runs
in all web browsers. Certainly I think that the features you listed
(pattern matching, tuples, succinct consts) would make very little
difference indeed to my daily productivity. They are clever but not really
useful and in the case of the first two will actually add cognitive
overhead to learning and using the language (e.g. when should I use an ADT
instead of an object?). You start to sweat things that make little
difference when you should be concentrating on getting your product
finished. Leave the sweating to the language connoisseurs on reddit - they
seem to have little else to do.

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no competition
between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different markets. Nobody
will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for the foreseeable
future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple will
eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple
to have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

[kc]

I have gotten caught up the "superiority" of print "hello world" in the
past. The next big language will prob not be a language at all but a
run-time; one that makes concurrency as naive as garbage collection is now.

Yes. A runtime with async and immutability at it's core designed for modern
multi-core cpu/gpu's. Though recently the Dart VM does seem to emphasise
these feature with streams, zones etc. Maybe the Dart VM should focus on
the 64-bit platforms - especially ARM64 - given dart2js for 32-bit
platforms. First on the server, and when Oilpan/Web Components/Animations
is done, on the client.

But I don't see what's particularly 'enterprise' or 'industry' about Java
syntax. The reason it became established was accidental. People like me in
the 90's were looking for a serverside language/runtime and went with
servlets. (Avoided J2EE - recognize insane boilerplate when I see it). JS,
despite it's weird corners, always had the richer semantics. But it took
node/V8 for JS to flourish on the server.

But newer languages - including those that run on the JVM - are choosing
other syntaxes with good reason. Easier to parse, annotate, read and write.
Dart looks like it's in a no man's land between Java, C# and JS.

K.

[Greg Lowe]

I'm all for new features - but It's easy to get things wrong if you try and
add everything at once - and it's hard/impossible to undo mistakes once
they're baked into the language.

Dart seems to be progressing pretty quickly - consider as a comparison that
it's taken Java two decades to get closures - despite a big team and a
hefty budget.

I hope that Dart will get multiple returns, destructing and pattern
matching in the not to distant future (or maybe someone will do that in
Dart's "CoffeeScript").

Bug for pattern matching:

https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=2949

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no competition
between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different markets. Nobody
will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for the foreseeable
future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple will
eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple to
have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

[Greg Lowe]

destructing => destructuring

Post by Greg Lowe
I'm all for new features - but It's easy to get things wrong if you try
and add everything at once - and it's hard/impossible to undo mistakes once
they're baked into the language.
Dart seems to be progressing pretty quickly - consider as a comparison
that it's taken Java two decades to get closures - despite a big team and a
hefty budget.
I hope that Dart will get multiple returns, destructing and pattern
matching in the not to distant future (or maybe someone will do that in
Dart's "CoffeeScript").
https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=2949

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no competition
between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different markets. Nobody
will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for the foreseeable
future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple will
eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple
to have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new

[Gen]

It took Sun that long because:
- They decided what the masses want by listening to some of their customers
about what they thought they needed.
Most people think they do not need something because they have never put it
to good use.
- They started with Ecma but switched to a defacto standard model.
- The could not decide on good syntax.
Something that appears not important to some when I read this discussion.
IMO, Java is out of favor because of cumbersome syntax and not because of
technical efficiency and static types.
I watched a talk from Bjarne Stroustrup:
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Keynote
And he said at some point that customers and committee want cumbersome
syntax for new things until next year when they have learned the concept.

Post by Greg Lowe
I'm all for new features - but It's easy to get things wrong if you try
and add everything at once - and it's hard/impossible to undo mistakes once
they're baked into the language.
Dart seems to be progressing pretty quickly - consider as a comparison
that it's taken Java two decades to get closures - despite a big team and a
hefty budget.
I hope that Dart will get multiple returns, destructing and pattern
matching in the not to distant future (or maybe someone will do that in
Dart's "CoffeeScript").
https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=2949

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no competition
between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different markets. Nobody
will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for the foreseeable
future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple will
eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple
to have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

[Sebastien Deleuze]

Linked topic : please vote (star) this issue if you are interested in
building Android native apps with Dart : http://dartbug.com/19266

- Managers decided what the masses want by listening to some of their
customers about what they thought they needed.
Most people think they do not need something because they have never put
it to good use.
I wonder how much Gilad is in the driver seat this time with Dart.
- The could not decide on good syntax.
Something that appears not important to some when I read this discussion.
IMO, Java is out of favor because of cumbersome syntax and not because of
technical efficiency and static types.
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Keynote
And AFAIR he said at some point that customers and committee want
cumbersome syntax for new things until next year when they have learned the
concept.
Besides, Sun they tried ISO and Ecma but withdraw both times and kept the
defacto standard model.
Since 1998 Java has the community process.

Post by Greg Lowe
I'm all for new features - but It's easy to get things wrong if you try
and add everything at once - and it's hard/impossible to undo mistakes once
they're baked into the language.
Dart seems to be progressing pretty quickly - consider as a comparison
that it's taken Java two decades to get closures - despite a big team and a
hefty budget.
I hope that Dart will get multiple returns, destructing and pattern
matching in the not to distant future (or maybe someone will do that in
Dart's "CoffeeScript").
https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=2949

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no
competition between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different
markets. Nobody will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for
the foreseeable future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple
will eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple
to have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

['Peter Ahé' via Dart Misc]

You are so far off the mark. The tale of closures in Java includes petty
rivalry and Sun putting Java out to pasture while they focused on JavaFX.

We put out the proposal in 2007, it was sponsored by the language creator
(James), specification lead (Gilad), compiler lead (me), and the former
compiler lead (Neal). See http://www.javac.info/closures-v01.html. It
crashed and burned in politics.

Cheers,
Peter

Post by Sebastien Deleuze
Linked topic : please vote (star) this issue if you are interested in
building Android native apps with Dart : http://dartbug.com/19266

- Managers decided what the masses want by listening to some of their
customers about what they thought they needed.
Most people think they do not need something because they have never put
it to good use.

I wonder how much Gilad is in the driver seat this time with Dart.

- The could not decide on good syntax.
Something that appears not important to some when I read this discussion.
IMO, Java is out of favor because of cumbersome syntax and not because of
technical efficiency and static types.
I watched a talk from Bjarne Stroustrup: http://channel9.msdn.com/
Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Keynote

And AFAIR he said at some point that customers and committee want

cumbersome syntax for new things until next year when they have learned the
concept.
Besides, Sun they tried ISO and Ecma but withdraw both times and kept the
defacto standard model.
Since 1998 Java has the community process.

Post by Greg Lowe
I'm all for new features - but It's easy to get things wrong if you try
and add everything at once - and it's hard/impossible to undo mistakes once
they're baked into the language.
Dart seems to be progressing pretty quickly - consider as a comparison
that it's taken Java two decades to get closures - despite a big team and a
hefty budget.
I hope that Dart will get multiple returns, destructing and pattern
matching in the not to distant future (or maybe someone will do that in
Dart's "CoffeeScript").
https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=2949

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no
competition between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different
markets. Nobody will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for
the foreseeable future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple
will eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source to
execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and Apple
to have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does is
lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Greg Lowe]

@Peter

Sorry for picking the Java closure example - not intentional - that sounds
like a really frustrating experience. I hope this time around you've got
more chance to innovate (although Dart's compile to js requirement must
also feel limiting and frustrating at times - i.e. no non local returns).

The dart2js incremental compilation work you're doing looks like it could
be a huge win for cross browser development. I'm also curious to see how
this pans out for live development workflows.

Post by 'Peter Ahé' via Dart Misc
You are so far off the mark. The tale of closures in Java includes petty
rivalry and Sun putting Java out to pasture while they focused on JavaFX.
We put out the proposal in 2007, it was sponsored by the language creator
(James), specification lead (Gilad), compiler lead (me), and the former
compiler lead (Neal). See http://www.javac.info/closures-v01.html. It
crashed and burned in politics.
Cheers,
Peter

Post by Sebastien Deleuze
Linked topic : please vote (star) this issue if you are interested in
building Android native apps with Dart : http://dartbug.com/19266

- Managers decided what the masses want by listening to some of their
customers about what they thought they needed.
Most people think they do not need something because they have never put
it to good use.

I wonder how much Gilad is in the driver seat this time with Dart.

- The could not decide on good syntax.
Something that appears not important to some when I read this discussion.
IMO, Java is out of favor because of cumbersome syntax and not because
of technical efficiency and static types.
I watched a talk from Bjarne Stroustrup: http://channel9.msdn.com/
Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Keynote

And AFAIR he said at some point that customers and committee want

cumbersome syntax for new things until next year when they have learned the
concept.
Besides, Sun they tried ISO and Ecma but withdraw both times and kept
the defacto standard model.
Since 1998 Java has the community process.

Post by Greg Lowe
I'm all for new features - but It's easy to get things wrong if you try
and add everything at once - and it's hard/impossible to undo mistakes once
they're baked into the language.
Dart seems to be progressing pretty quickly - consider as a comparison
that it's taken Java two decades to get closures - despite a big team and a
hefty budget.
I hope that Dart will get multiple returns, destructing and pattern
matching in the not to distant future (or maybe someone will do that in
Dart's "CoffeeScript").
https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=2949

Post by kc

Post by David Kopec
I think a lot of you are looking at this wrong - there is no
competition between Dart and Swift. They serve completely different
markets. Nobody will be choosing between Dart and Swift for a project for
the foreseeable future.

I get that.
Swift is AOT/native initially aimed at iOS/OS X. (Though maybe Apple
will eventually release the compiler, core libs and runtime under an MIT
licence).
Dart is a JIT/dynamic OO language aimed at the web. Goes from source
to execution at runtime. Snapshots for fast startup. Open licence.
Different markets.
But one language made the right call re Java-isms and the other didn't.
And what is poor is that the Java-isms hide what Dart is about.
Who wants a switch like Java/C. No one.
Who wants tuples. Everyone.
Who wants a succinct syntax for immutable bindings. Thinking dev's.
And despite the magical thinking that TC52 will cause Mozilla and
Apple to have an epiphany and adopt a competitors technology, all TC52 does
is lock-in the Java-isms and slow down the adoption of features like
tuples/multiple return values. The only benefit to TC52 is if Google think
having a ECMA standard is a figleaf before putting the VM into Chrome. But
overall, given that TC52 membership is 3 Googler's, someone from Dart's
local uni and a dude from Broadcom it doesn't mean much.
K.

--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new

[kc]

Post by Sebastien Deleuze
Linked topic : please vote (star) this issue if you are interested in
building Android native apps with Dart : http://dartbug.com/19266

Imo the best Google strategy would be a 'new' language with a good
async/immutable story which compiles down to both JS and ART/Dalvik
(Google's take on Java). This would cover Chrome/OS and Android.

Ultimately this 'new' language would eventually have it's own runtime
geared to modern multi-core cpu/gpu hardware. And the runtime could be used
both within the browser with JIT and for native apps with a bit more static
AOT.

Dart has a new runtime but the Android side of things seems unclear.

K.

[曹忠]

Google and dart to win the future, we must recruit more , quickly take dart
and development framework to the mature and open up the dart can develop
desktop, web and mobile applications, because not much time left to
google. Obviously, apple swift more mature, better development tools,
performance and dynamic language features combine more rods, the only
drawback is not cross-platform.

圚 2014幎6月3日星期二UTC+8䞊午9时05分23秒kc写道

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Most of the complexity lies in supporting different environments. Apple
makes it easy for themselves by just ignoring the outside World.
(many areas where Apply seems superior are based on just that)
For this reason alone the language is limited to people who are satisfied
when their solutions run on Apple hardware alone.

That Google supports so many environments makes their task much harder but
the solutions can run everywhere.

There is no need for panic, just because Apple made a nice presentation the
other day.

Post by 曹忠
Google and dart to win the future, we must recruit more , quickly take
dart and development framework to the mature and open up the dart can
develop desktop, web and mobile applications, because not much time left to
google. Obviously, apple swift more mature, better development tools,
performance and dynamic language features combine more rods, the only
drawback is not cross-platform.
圚 2014幎6月3日星期二UTC+8䞊午9时05分23秒kc写道

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[George Moschovitis]

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
There is no need for panic, just because Apple made a nice presentation
the other day.

No panic, but maybe we could consider 'borrowing' some nice features, e.g.

- enums/switch (their design looks interesting)
- typealias
- tupples / destructuring
- repl

to name just a few.

-g.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by 曹忠
Google and dart to win the future, we must recruit more , quickly take
dart and development framework to the mature and open up the dart can
develop desktop, web and mobile applications, because not much time left to
google. Obviously, apple swift more mature, better development tools,
performance and dynamic language features combine more rods, the only
drawback is not cross-platform.
圚 2014幎6月3日星期二UTC+8䞊午9时05分23秒kc写道

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[kc]

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
There is no need for panic, just because Apple made a nice presentation

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
the other day.

No panic, but maybe we could consider 'borrowing' some nice features, e.g.
- enums/switch (their design looks interesting)
- typealias
- tupples / destructuring
- repl
to name just a few.
-g.

Agree - the core semantics of Dart are good. But comparing Swift
switch/tuples/patterns with Dart's 'C'/Java heritage switch, I honesty
think the Swift version will be of more use in 'industry', 'enterprize' and
script kiddy-land.

K.

[Matthew Butler]

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
There is no need for panic, just because Apple made a nice presentation

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
the other day.

No panic, but maybe we could consider 'borrowing' some nice features, e.g.
- enums/switch (their design looks interesting)

http://dartbug.com/88

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
to name just a few.
-g.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by 曹忠
Google and dart to win the future, we must recruit more , quickly take
dart and development framework to the mature and open up the dart can
develop desktop, web and mobile applications, because not much time left to
google. Obviously, apple swift more mature, better development tools,
performance and dynamic language features combine more rods, the only
drawback is not cross-platform.
圚 2014幎6月3日星期二UTC+8䞊午9时05分23秒kc写道

Post by kc
// Dart
final Point p = new Point(0,0);
// Swift
let p = Point(0,0)
One of these looks succinct and modern. The other 1995.
K.

[kc]

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do developers
get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for releases - as part
of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak is well aware).

Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?

http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html

K.

[Gen]

I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker with
good reasons.

Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.

Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike their
"secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do developers
get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for releases - as part
of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

[Jesse Warden]

Whats the Isolate struggle?

Post by Gen
I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker
with good reasons.
Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.
Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike their
"secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do developers
get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for releases - as part
of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Gen]

I have not followed Dart very closely in the last months.
It took a long time for the Isolate API to be finished. I do not know if
the Isolate API is considered stable by now.

The Mirror API lacks features for dynamic code generation. I do not know
about any work on that front.
Probably the Dart team would refuse to give any kind of schedule anyway.

Post by Jesse Warden
Whats the Isolate struggle?

Post by Gen
I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker
with good reasons.
Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.
Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike their
"secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do
developers get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for
releases - as part of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak
is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Joao Pedrosa]

Hi,

I think by now most of us have been able to take a look at the Swift
documentation. I can say that I am glad that Dart took as many chances as
possible to streamline the syntax early on. By having Dart I don't really
envy Swift.

Many folks seem to be mostly interested in how the different languages
handle types. And the bug tracker of Dart and a lot of discussion in Dart
has always had types as a core concern.

Thanks to neat syntax, Dart got away without so many abbreviations. Swift
uses "func" and "init" and perhaps "in", a lot.

I confess that I found the string interpolation syntax with "abc\(name)def"
kind of neat. :-)

I think we are fortunate that Apple has come up with an easier to
understand language, since Objective-C was kind of a mess. But Dart is
higher level than Swift and thus is much more fun to work with. Swift may
be fun insofar as it's plenty fast for what it does. We may envy Swift's
great performance though. Programmers also like it fast.

Cheers,
Joao

Post by Jesse Warden
Whats the Isolate struggle?

Post by Gen
I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker
with good reasons.
Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.
Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike their
"secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do
developers get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for
releases - as part of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak
is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[George Moschovitis]

Post by Joao Pedrosa
I confess that I found the string interpolation syntax with
"abc\(name)def" kind of neat. :-)

+10

[Matthew Butler]

Post by Gen
I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker
with good reasons.
Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.

Actually, important people care about TC52. In fact the initial complaints
from Webkit (eg Safari) and Mozilla was not a new language in itself, but
that it was a 'non-standardized' language. With the standards committee
closing that issue, these companies will need to seriously look at Dart
again, particularly as it is integrated into Chrome and starts giving a
boost to applications.

Matt

Post by Gen
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.
Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike their
"secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do developers
get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for releases - as part
of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

[Gen]

It was one of the initial complaints.
I know no one that would use or dismiss Dart because there is some Ecma
specification or not.

AFAIR, Brendan Eich said once that Ecma sounds like a skin disease
and I had not the impression that he attributed any importance to that
association.

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Gen
I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker
with good reasons.
Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.

Actually, important people care about TC52. In fact the initial complaints
from Webkit (eg Safari) and Mozilla was not a new language in itself, but
that it was a 'non-standardized' language. With the standards committee
closing that issue, these companies will need to seriously look at Dart
again, particularly as it is integrated into Chrome and starts giving a
boost to applications.
Matt

Post by Gen
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.
Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike their
"secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do
developers get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for
releases - as part of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak
is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

[Matthew Butler]

Post by Gen
It was one of the initial complaints.
I know no one that would use or dismiss Dart because there is some Ecma
specification or not.
AFAIR, Brendan Eich said once that Ecma sounds like a skin disease

Actually it was specifically about JavaScript being renamed "EcmaScript"[1]

Post by Gen
and I had not the impression that he attributed any importance to that
association.

It was Brendan that criticized Google for Dart being a non-standard
language and saying those resources should be added to the existing ones
already contributing to TC39 (EcmaScript) and the goals they're trying to
reach.

[1]: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2006-October/000133.html

Post by Gen

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Gen
I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker
with good reasons.
Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.

Actually, important people care about TC52. In fact the initial
complaints from Webkit (eg Safari) and Mozilla was not a new language in
itself, but that it was a 'non-standardized' language. With the standards
committee closing that issue, these companies will need to seriously look
at Dart again, particularly as it is integrated into Chrome and starts
giving a boost to applications.
Matt

Post by Gen
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.
Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike
their "secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do
developers get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for
releases - as part of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak
is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe? Outside
Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

[Gen]

You fight with what you have.
And I guess this is the main point:
"those resources should be added to the existing ones already contributing
to TC39 (EcmaScript)"

I still believe that Brendan or any one involved with Ecmascript would
rather see Dart fail sooner than later in order to keep
Javascript/Ecmascript in the spotlight.
Dart competes with Javascript, like any other web and now server language
(nodejs), despite a different marketing speech from the Dart team.

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Gen
It was one of the initial complaints.
I know no one that would use or dismiss Dart because there is some Ecma
specification or not.
AFAIR, Brendan Eich said once that Ecma sounds like a skin disease

Actually it was specifically about JavaScript being renamed "EcmaScript"[1]

Post by Gen
and I had not the impression that he attributed any importance to that
association.

It was Brendan that criticized Google for Dart being a non-standard
language and saying those resources should be added to the existing ones
already contributing to TC39 (EcmaScript) and the goals they're trying to
reach.
https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2006-October/000133.html

Post by Gen

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Gen
I guess the best way is to complain in the forum and the issue tracker
with good reasons.
Who cares about TC52 anyway ?
Apple, Facebook, Mozilla, Microsoft and the Java world have made their
decision and Dart is not part of any one's future.

Actually, important people care about TC52. In fact the initial
complaints from Webkit (eg Safari) and Mozilla was not a new language in
itself, but that it was a 'non-standardized' language. With the standards
committee closing that issue, these companies will need to seriously look
at Dart again, particularly as it is integrated into Chrome and starts
giving a boost to applications.
Matt

Post by Gen
Unless Google supports Mozilla even more.
Dart is and will depend on Google.
Like you I hope that TC52 will not become a problem for Dart.
It is time that Google shows that Dart is a serious project; unlike
their "secret weapon" Go.
Their secret customer stories, the absence from Android (AFAIK) and the
Isolate and Mirror API struggle do not convince regular programmers.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by Matthew Butler
http://dartbug.com/88
- typealias

http://dartbug.com/2626

Post by Matthew Butler
- tupples / destructuring

http://dartbug.com/10310

Post by Matthew Butler
- repl

http://dartbug.com/4409

Post by Matthew Butler
to name just a few.

The are lots of language requests in the issue tracker. How do
developers get an insight into how they are prioritized/bundled for
releases - as part of TC52. (And EcmaTime can slow things down as Lars Bak
is well aware).
Who is on TC52? Anyone from MS, Mozilla, Apple, Opera or Adobe?
Outside Google? Any contributors to the Dart Google groups?
http://news.dartlang.org/2014/02/standardizing-dart-1st-ecma-tc52.html
K.

[Alex Tatumizer]

In Europe, there's a standard for everything. They once standardized
cucumbers:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/european-bureaucracy-should-the-eu-sell-bent-cucumbers-a-562064.html
Not sure whether it was an ECMA standard or not, and whether Apple was on
committee, but it could be. Apples these days often taste like cucumbers,
and vice versa.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

As far as I know standardization is to make it more likely other browser
vendors implement it too
not to make it more compelling to developers.
I don't think that it makes much difference for developers, they rather
have new features fast.

Post by Gen
It was one of the initial complaints.
I know no one that would use or dismiss Dart because there is some Ecma
specification or not.
AFAIR, Brendan Eich said once that Ecma sounds like a skin disease
and I had not the impression that he attributed any importance to that
association.

[Gen]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2982949
Brendan is interested in an open and universal web language and not
specifically about design by committee or JS.
He thinks the specificatipon is important because it creates a common
standard for all browser vendors.
But even with TC52, the situation is completely different because only
Google wants and offers Dart.

I do not know how the other Javascript users and implementors think about
Dart.
Ecma or not, Dart competes in every regard with Javascript as only
universal web language.
Ecma or not, no other browser vendor but Google and maybe Firefox because
of Google, will offer the DartVM.
Ecma or not, implementation and support for a VM is not simple or cheap.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
As far as I know standardization is to make it more likely other browser
vendors implement it too
not to make it more compelling to developers.
I don't think that it makes much difference for developers, they rather
have new features fast.

Post by Gen
It was one of the initial complaints.
I know no one that would use or dismiss Dart because there is some Ecma
specification or not.
AFAIR, Brendan Eich said once that Ecma sounds like a skin disease
and I had not the impression that he attributed any importance to that
association.

[Alex Tatumizer]

I think Swift outswifted dart in one respect: it can be used as web
programming language regardless of standartization or formal support by
browser vendors - much in the way how objective C could be used: via
emscripten -e.g.
https://sites.google.com/site/virtualcide/home/using-emscripten

Not sure how easy or difficult this route could be, but it's possible (may
be just a matter of using appropriate libraries).

Strange that no one mentioned this option yet.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

I don't think emscripten will become mainstream. This is nice if you have a
big codebase that you want migrate to the web.
There is no garbage collection and I don't know if it even can access the
DOM (at least NaCl code can't)

Post by Alex Tatumizer
I think Swift outswifted dart in one respect: it can be used as web
programming language regardless of standartization or formal support by
browser vendors - much in the way how objective C could be used: via
emscripten -e.g.
https://sites.google.com/site/virtualcide/home/using-emscripten
Not sure how easy or difficult this route could be, but it's possible (may
be just a matter of using appropriate libraries).
Strange that no one mentioned this option yet.

[Filipe Morgado]

Swift is not a "web programming language". It is a iOS/OSX-only programming
language and it will probably never run "on the web".

Post by Alex Tatumizer
I think Swift outswifted dart in one respect: it can be used as web
programming language regardless of standartization or formal support by
browser vendors - much in the way how objective C could be used: via
emscripten -e.g.
https://sites.google.com/site/virtualcide/home/using-emscripten
Not sure how easy or difficult this route could be, but it's possible (may
be just a matter of using appropriate libraries).
Strange that no one mentioned this option yet.

[Alex Tatumizer]

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I don't think emscripten will become mainstream

If Apple says it's mainstream, it's mainstream by definition. They can
change the name from emscripten to "cucumber", who cares, it's just LLVM-js
compiler.
For DOM, they can define LLVM extension (LLVM is designed by the same guy
anyway).
Whether they choose to activate this option, it's hard to tell, but the
option certainly exists.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Swift is not a "web programming language"

They can start calling it web programming language at any time. What is
there to stop them?

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Apple can an will call it everything that helps to sell it, no question.
There are always some use cases where this is great approach (the same for
Go on LLVM and NaCl)
but I wouldn't expect broad adoption for such solutions.

Post by Alex Tatumizer

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I don't think emscripten will become mainstream

If Apple says it's mainstream, it's mainstream by definition. They can
change the name from emscripten to "cucumber", who cares, it's just LLVM-js
compiler.
For DOM, they can define LLVM extension (LLVM is designed by the same guy
anyway).
Whether they choose to activate this option, it's hard to tell, but the
option certainly exists.

[Gen]

Probably it possible to port or translate Cocoa and Swift code to
Javascript or even asm.js using LLVM.
Will Apple do that ? I doubt it.

Post by Filipe Morgado
Swift is not a "web programming language". It is a iOS/OSX-only
programming language and it will probably never run "on the web".

Post by Alex Tatumizer
I think Swift outswifted dart in one respect: it can be used as web
programming language regardless of standartization or formal support by
browser vendors - much in the way how objective C could be used: via
emscripten -e.g.
https://sites.google.com/site/virtualcide/home/using-emscripten
Not sure how easy or difficult this route could be, but it's possible
(may be just a matter of using appropriate libraries).
Strange that no one mentioned this option yet.

[kc]

Post by Matthew Butler
Actually, important people care about TC52.

Who? Are they represented on TC52?

Post by Matthew Butler
In fact the initial complaints from Webkit (eg Safari) and Mozilla was not
a new language in itself, but that it was a 'non-standardized' language.
With the standards committee closing that issue, these companies will need
to seriously look at Dart again, particularly as it is integrated into
Chrome and starts giving a boost to applications.

The imprimatur of ECMA will likely have no effect.

A commitment by Google that the Dart VM is going into the heart of it's own
platforms - Chrome, ChromeOS and Android - so that it flies on touch with
modern web technologies - will make people pay attention. Because of
Google's market share.

Apple are totally committed with Swift. They laid out what they doing. It's
going to be core to their platforms, no questions asked. (Whether Swift
v1.0 will be released with a MIT licence as part of Clang/llvm I don't
know.)

K.

[Matthew Butler]

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler
Actually, important people care about TC52.

Who? Are they represented on TC52?

I honestly couldn't say if they're represented on TC52 or not. But they
don't have to be. Who? Brendan Eich is one who said that Mozilla wouldn't
adopt Dart because it was not an open standard. And Apple Engineer Oliver
Hunt also voiced similar concerns about Dart not being a standard. However
they don't need to be a member of the committee to implement, or even pay
attention to the language now that it's being standardized. Do they make
the final decisions at either Mozilla or Apple/Safari (or webkit in general
for that matter). No probably not (anymore), however when the customers
start looking for Dart support that's one less leg that either browser has
to stand on to refuse to implement it.

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler
In fact the initial complaints from Webkit (eg Safari) and Mozilla was
not a new language in itself, but that it was a 'non-standardized'
language. With the standards committee closing that issue, these companies
will need to seriously look at Dart again, particularly as it is integrated
into Chrome and starts giving a boost to applications.

The imprimatur of ECMA will likely have no effect.
A commitment by Google that the Dart VM is going into the heart of it's
own platforms - Chrome, ChromeOS and Android - so that it flies on touch
with modern web technologies - will make people pay attention. Because of
Google's market share.

Which is being done. But if it was shipped when Dart was not a standard
then immediately we see what we had when Dart was first announced, that
Google is trying to fracture the web and implementing non-standard features
that others cannot/will not implement not being a standard.

Post by kc
Apple are totally committed with Swift. They laid out what they doing.
It's going to be core to their platforms, no questions asked. (Whether
Swift v1.0 will be released with a MIT licence as part of Clang/llvm I
don't know.)

Sure, but being as I do not have apple products I'll never run a line of
code of it. Dart's platform however it the web which runs on Apple,
Android, Windows Phone, Linux, Windows etc. etc etc. Google's platform is
the web. It's where gmail resides, it's where AdWords resides. They didn't
ship a 'chrome only' AdWords, just as the didn't ship an Android Only
Gmail. But that's exactly what Apple is doing.

Post by kc
K.

[kc]

Post by Matthew Butler
I honestly couldn't say if they're represented on TC52 or not.

OK. Who *is* on TC52. Is there a list somewhere?

Post by Matthew Butler
Which is being done. But if it was shipped when Dart was not a standard
then immediately we see what we had when Dart was first announced, that
Google is trying to fracture the web and implementing non-standard features
that others cannot/will not implement not being a standard.

If standardization is a box Google feels it has to tick before putting the
Dart VM into it's platforms then OK. But ticking that box will have no
effect on the other browser vendors. The only thing that will is massive
and rapid takeup of Dart. Which requires at least the announcement from
Google that the Dart VM is going into it's platforms. Google is asking
developers to make a platform bet.

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by kc
Apple are totally committed with Swift. They laid out what they doing.
It's going to be core to their platforms, no questions asked. (Whether
Swift v1.0 will be released with a MIT licence as part of Clang/llvm I
don't know.)

Sure, but being as I do not have apple products I'll never run a line of
code of it. Dart's platform however it the web which runs on Apple,
Android, Windows Phone, Linux, Windows etc. etc etc. Google's platform is
the web. It's where gmail resides, it's where AdWords resides. They didn't
ship a 'chrome only' AdWords, just as the didn't ship an Android Only
Gmail. But that's exactly what Apple is doing.

I admire Apple's focus not their lock-in strategy. And that Swift had the
good taste not to look like Java.

K.

[Matthew Butler]

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler
I honestly couldn't say if they're represented on TC52 or not.

OK. Who *is* on TC52. Is there a list somewhere?

Apart from Chaiman and Secretary I'm not able to tell. I believe the
members list is restricted to members only access (but being as I'm not
part of Ecma Group or this TC in particular i couldn't say for sure).

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler
Which is being done. But if it was shipped when Dart was not a standard
then immediately we see what we had when Dart was first announced, that
Google is trying to fracture the web and implementing non-standard features
that others cannot/will not implement not being a standard.

If standardization is a box Google feels it has to tick before putting the
Dart VM into it's platforms then OK. But ticking that box will have no
effect on the other browser vendors. The only thing that will is massive
and rapid takeup of Dart. Which requires at least the announcement from
Google that the Dart VM is going into it's platforms. Google is asking
developers to make a platform bet.

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by kc
Apple are totally committed with Swift. They laid out what they doing.
It's going to be core to their platforms, no questions asked. (Whether
Swift v1.0 will be released with a MIT licence as part of Clang/llvm I
don't know.)

Sure, but being as I do not have apple products I'll never run a line of
code of it. Dart's platform however it the web which runs on Apple,
Android, Windows Phone, Linux, Windows etc. etc etc. Google's platform is
the web. It's where gmail resides, it's where AdWords resides. They didn't
ship a 'chrome only' AdWords, just as the didn't ship an Android Only
Gmail. But that's exactly what Apple is doing.

I admire Apple's focus not their lock-in strategy. And that Swift had the
good taste not to look like Java.
K.

[kc]

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by kc
OK. Who *is* on TC52. Is there a list somewhere?

Apart from Chaiman and Secretary I'm not able to tell. I believe the
members list is restricted to members only access (but being as I'm not
part of Ecma Group or this TC in particular i couldn't say for sure).

Does anyone know? Are the meetings of TC52 minuted?

K.

[Matthew Butler]

Post by kc

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by kc
OK. Who *is* on TC52. Is there a list somewhere?

Apart from Chaiman and Secretary I'm not able to tell. I believe the
members list is restricted to members only access (but being as I'm not
part of Ecma Group or this TC in particular i couldn't say for sure).

Does anyone know? Are the meetings of TC52 minuted?

I did some digging and found this document:
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-MEMENTOS/Ecma%20memento%202014%20public.pdf

Page 47 lists TC52 including members (3 from Google, One from Aarhus
University and one from Broadcom)

I know the meeting minutes are supposed to be posted on the site as well,
however they are relatively slow to post up-to-date information and I've
not been able to discover them yet.

Matt

Post by kc
K.