[dart-misc] Embedded Chromium with the Dart VM (like Electron)

[John Ryan]

Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.

Here's a list of some Electron apps:
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron

And this is a comparison with a similar platform, NW.js:
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared

So as far I as I can tell, there are currently 3 ways to achieve this:

1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM

I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter plans
to support Desktop applications.

Cheers!

-John

[Benjamin Strauß]

https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/misc/9NuTuBrGeZI

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter plans
to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John

[Matthew Butler]

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter plans
to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John

Yes, this has come up before. However it's important to note that it is
highly unlikely you'll see #3 happen, unless undertaken by someone in the
community. The Chromium with the DartVM (Eg: Dartium), is actually being
changed to no longer have the Dart VM itself but rather a wrapper around js
interop. Maintaining the full VM in Dartium was a significant undertaking,
and since there are no longer any plans to provide the VM in the browser at
all going forward, and to always be a compile-to javascript language for
the client side then it didn't make sense to continue the enormous effort
involved with patching Dartium with each new release.
My thoughts would be #2 if you wanted to specifically target the electron
platform. Particularly has the DDC matures it will be much easier for that
type of interop to happen, along with the new js interop libraries.

Regarding Flutter, I believe there was an official statement that indicated
they had no immediate plans to support Desktop applications, but that it
would be potentially possible for community members to implement and get
working (possibly with a little help/guidance from the Flutter team)

[k***@gmail.com]

[Reviving the old thread instead of creating new one]

Were there any progress on Flutter desktop support by the Flutter team or
by the community?
If no, what is the implementation complexity? I am looking for an
alternative to Electron framework.

Thanks,
Kurman

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John

Yes, this has come up before. However it's important to note that it is
highly unlikely you'll see #3 happen, unless undertaken by someone in the
community. The Chromium with the DartVM (Eg: Dartium), is actually being
changed to no longer have the Dart VM itself but rather a wrapper around js
interop. Maintaining the full VM in Dartium was a significant undertaking,
and since there are no longer any plans to provide the VM in the browser at
all going forward, and to always be a compile-to javascript language for
the client side then it didn't make sense to continue the enormous effort
involved with patching Dartium with each new release.
My thoughts would be #2 if you wanted to specifically target the electron
platform. Particularly has the DDC matures it will be much easier for that
type of interop to happen, along with the new js interop libraries.
Regarding Flutter, I believe there was an official statement that
indicated they had no immediate plans to support Desktop applications, but
that it would be potentially possible for community members to implement
and get working (possibly with a little help/guidance from the Flutter
team)
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

I don't know about implementation complexity, desktop just doesn't have
enough priority currently to get any resources assigned.

Post by k***@gmail.com
[Reviving the old thread instead of creating new one]
Were there any progress on Flutter desktop support by the Flutter team or
by the community?
If no, what is the implementation complexity? I am looking for an
alternative to Electron framework.
Thanks,
Kurman

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John

Yes, this has come up before. However it's important to note that it is
highly unlikely you'll see #3 happen, unless undertaken by someone in the
community. The Chromium with the DartVM (Eg: Dartium), is actually being
changed to no longer have the Dart VM itself but rather a wrapper around js
interop. Maintaining the full VM in Dartium was a significant undertaking,
and since there are no longer any plans to provide the VM in the browser at
all going forward, and to always be a compile-to javascript language for
the client side then it didn't make sense to continue the enormous effort
involved with patching Dartium with each new release.
My thoughts would be #2 if you wanted to specifically target the electron
platform. Particularly has the DDC matures it will be much easier for that
type of interop to happen, along with the new js interop libraries.
Regarding Flutter, I believe there was an official statement that
indicated they had no immediate plans to support Desktop applications, but
that it would be potentially possible for community members to implement
and get working (possibly with a little help/guidance from the Flutter
team)
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[Lex Berezhny]

To elaborate a bit on what GÃŒnter said... There is a Linux desktop unit
test runner for Flutter, so being able to compile and run Flutter on Linux
is not a problem. The part that's missing is the window dressing to
actually show something using your favorite window manager and support
mouse/keyboard interaction. Also, which window manager would it use? All of
them? Seems like a big community effort.

Someone with Gnome/GTK, KDE/Qt, etc, experience can probably add desktop
support as a community project. It just hasn't happened yet.

Relevant code:

https://github.com/flutter/engine/blob/1fed16fb25f3f7afc8303116d6ef707c4043c127/shell/platform/linux/main_linux.cc#L74

^ You'd have to implement a RunInteractive version of that function :-) And
provide all of the mouse/keyboard input mapping between the window manager
and Flutter and also implement a window frame, etc. Seems rather labor
intensive (but straight forward?) and then it would need to be maintained
to keep up with Flutter changes.

- lex

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I don't know about implementation complexity, desktop just doesn't have
enough priority currently to get any resources assigned.

Post by k***@gmail.com
[Reviving the old thread instead of creating new one]
Were there any progress on Flutter desktop support by the Flutter team or
by the community?
If no, what is the implementation complexity? I am looking for an
alternative to Electron framework.
Thanks,
Kurman

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John

Yes, this has come up before. However it's important to note that it is
highly unlikely you'll see #3 happen, unless undertaken by someone in the
community. The Chromium with the DartVM (Eg: Dartium), is actually being
changed to no longer have the Dart VM itself but rather a wrapper around js
interop. Maintaining the full VM in Dartium was a significant undertaking,
and since there are no longer any plans to provide the VM in the browser at
all going forward, and to always be a compile-to javascript language for
the client side then it didn't make sense to continue the enormous effort
involved with patching Dartium with each new release.
My thoughts would be #2 if you wanted to specifically target the
electron platform. Particularly has the DDC matures it will be much easier
for that type of interop to happen, along with the new js interop libraries.
Regarding Flutter, I believe there was an official statement that
indicated they had no immediate plans to support Desktop applications, but
that it would be potentially possible for community members to implement
and get working (possibly with a little help/guidance from the Flutter
team)
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[k***@gmail.com]

Interesting, thank you for the detailed response. What is the approach in
Chrom(e|ium) world and how much of it can be re-purposed here?

As far as my immediate needs, dart2js+Electron looks as more sensible route
right now.

Kurman

Post by Lex Berezhny
To elaborate a bit on what GÃŒnter said... There is a Linux desktop unit
test runner for Flutter, so being able to compile and run Flutter on Linux
is not a problem. The part that's missing is the window dressing to
actually show something using your favorite window manager and support
mouse/keyboard interaction. Also, which window manager would it use? All of
them? Seems like a big community effort.
Someone with Gnome/GTK, KDE/Qt, etc, experience can probably add desktop
support as a community project. It just hasn't happened yet.
https://github.com/flutter/engine/blob/1fed16fb25f3f7afc8303116d6ef707c4043c127/shell/platform/linux/main_linux.cc#L74
^ You'd have to implement a RunInteractive version of that function :-)
And provide all of the mouse/keyboard input mapping between the window
manager and Flutter and also implement a window frame, etc. Seems rather
labor intensive (but straight forward?) and then it would need to be
maintained to keep up with Flutter changes.
- lex

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I don't know about implementation complexity, desktop just doesn't have
enough priority currently to get any resources assigned.

Post by k***@gmail.com
[Reviving the old thread instead of creating new one]
Were there any progress on Flutter desktop support by the Flutter team
or by the community?
If no, what is the implementation complexity? I am looking for an
alternative to Electron framework.
Thanks,
Kurman

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack.
It's most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John

Yes, this has come up before. However it's important to note that it is
highly unlikely you'll see #3 happen, unless undertaken by someone in the
community. The Chromium with the DartVM (Eg: Dartium), is actually being
changed to no longer have the Dart VM itself but rather a wrapper around js
interop. Maintaining the full VM in Dartium was a significant undertaking,
and since there are no longer any plans to provide the VM in the browser at
all going forward, and to always be a compile-to javascript language for
the client side then it didn't make sense to continue the enormous effort
involved with patching Dartium with each new release.
My thoughts would be #2 if you wanted to specifically target the
electron platform. Particularly has the DDC matures it will be much easier
for that type of interop to happen, along with the new js interop libraries.
Regarding Flutter, I believe there was an official statement that
indicated they had no immediate plans to support Desktop applications, but
that it would be potentially possible for community members to implement
and get working (possibly with a little help/guidance from the Flutter
team)
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--

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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

dart2js+Electron was reported to work a few times
there is some package on `pub` AFAIR for some abstractions to be able to
use APIs not provided by the browser as far as I remember.

Post by k***@gmail.com
Interesting, thank you for the detailed response. What is the approach in
Chrom(e|ium) world and how much of it can be re-purposed here?
As far as my immediate needs, dart2js+Electron looks as more sensible
route right now.
Kurman

Post by Lex Berezhny
To elaborate a bit on what GÃŒnter said... There is a Linux desktop unit
test runner for Flutter, so being able to compile and run Flutter on Linux
is not a problem. The part that's missing is the window dressing to
actually show something using your favorite window manager and support
mouse/keyboard interaction. Also, which window manager would it use? All of
them? Seems like a big community effort.
Someone with Gnome/GTK, KDE/Qt, etc, experience can probably add desktop
support as a community project. It just hasn't happened yet.
https://github.com/flutter/engine/blob/1fed16fb25f3f7afc8303116d6ef707c4043c127/shell/platform/linux/main_linux.cc#L74
^ You'd have to implement a RunInteractive version of that function :-)
And provide all of the mouse/keyboard input mapping between the window
manager and Flutter and also implement a window frame, etc. Seems rather
labor intensive (but straight forward?) and then it would need to be
maintained to keep up with Flutter changes.
- lex

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
I don't know about implementation complexity, desktop just doesn't have
enough priority currently to get any resources assigned.

Post by k***@gmail.com
[Reviving the old thread instead of creating new one]
Were there any progress on Flutter desktop support by the Flutter team
or by the community?
If no, what is the implementation complexity? I am looking for an
alternative to Electron framework.
Thanks,
Kurman

Post by Matthew Butler

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack.
It's most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John

Yes, this has come up before. However it's important to note that it
is highly unlikely you'll see #3 happen, unless undertaken by someone in
the community. The Chromium with the DartVM (Eg: Dartium), is actually
being changed to no longer have the Dart VM itself but rather a wrapper
around js interop. Maintaining the full VM in Dartium was a significant
undertaking, and since there are no longer any plans to provide the VM in
the browser at all going forward, and to always be a compile-to javascript
language for the client side then it didn't make sense to continue the
enormous effort involved with patching Dartium with each new release.
My thoughts would be #2 if you wanted to specifically target the
electron platform. Particularly has the DDC matures it will be much easier
for that type of interop to happen, along with the new js interop libraries.
Regarding Flutter, I believe there was an official statement that
indicated they had no immediate plans to support Desktop applications, but
that it would be potentially possible for community members to implement
and get working (possibly with a little help/guidance from the Flutter
team)
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Daniel Danilatos]

+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter plans
to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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['Alan Knight' via Dart Misc]

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have a
Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the bindings
to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Kasper Peulen]

@Alan Knight

Trying to understand, does that mean the the dart:html library will use js
interop?

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 6:19 PM, 'Alan Knight' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Alan Knight' via Dart Misc
Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have a
Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the bindings
to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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--
Kasper

['Alan Knight' via Dart Misc]

Yes. And this is what's shipping now. If you look inside the dart:html
library in current Dartium, you'll see code like

_NamedNodeMap get _attributes =>
wrap_jso(_blink.BlinkElement.instance.attributes_Getter_(unwrap_jso(this)));

where wrap_jso and unwrap_jso convert between the JsObject and the
dart:html representation. We were worried about the performance impact of
doing this, but remarkably it's been hardly noticeable. And it both reduces
the amount of C++ code we have to maintain enormously and means that we're
writing to stable JS APIs rather than internal C++ ones that change
frequently.

Post by Kasper Peulen
@Alan Knight
Trying to understand, does that mean the the dart:html library will use js
interop?
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 6:19 PM, 'Alan Knight' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Alan Knight' via Dart Misc
Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have a
Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the bindings
to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
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--
Kasper
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[Steven Roose]

So that means that it would still be possible to have something that
provides both dart:html and dart:io?

Consider Deuterium to be an Electron fork that instead of

Electron runs Node.js together with Chromium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Electron to do lower level interactions with the OS in
a way normal browsers can’t.

would be

Deuterium runs dart:io together with Dartium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Deuterium to do lower level interactions with the OS
in a way normal browsers can’t.

If you see how much effort Google invests in Flutter to make Dart usable
for Native Mobile apps by building a platform from the ground up, I guess
this would be much less work because most of the groundwork is already
there (being Dartium, Dart VM io and Electron).

Being able to use Dart for both server code, web apps, mobile apps and
desktop apps, would make it very appealing to developers!

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have a
Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the bindings
to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Benjamin Strauß]

It would be much less work to update Flutter to run on desktop machines.
You would also have a rendering pipeline that is way more efficient and
saner to program in than the web platform.

The Blink/Webkit architecture is basically 15 years old. I never understood
why someone would want to use "clunky" browser engines to build desktop
applications. Maybe this will change with Mozilla's servo engine which is a
brand new system built for modern hardware.

Post by Steven Roose
So that means that it would still be possible to have something that
provides both dart:html and dart:io?
Consider Deuterium to be an Electron fork that instead of

Electron runs Node.js together with Chromium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Electron to do lower level interactions with the OS in
a way normal browsers can’t.

would be

Deuterium runs dart:io together with Dartium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Deuterium to do lower level interactions with the OS
in a way normal browsers can’t.

If you see how much effort Google invests in Flutter to make Dart usable
for Native Mobile apps by building a platform from the ground up, I guess
this would be much less work because most of the groundwork is already
there (being Dartium, Dart VM io and Electron).
Being able to use Dart for both server code, web apps, mobile apps and
desktop apps, would make it very appealing to developers!

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have a
Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the bindings
to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack. It's
most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Filipe Morgado]

My hope is on Flutter alone.

With configurable imports (being developed, I think), one could maybe target both mobile and the web using the same api, Flutter's, without changing anything in our apps.

A lot of people love HTML/CSS (maybe because they don't know anything else), but it is, IMO, a dinosaur, too big to ignore, but it comes from another era, is clunky, slow and anything but productive, unless you're very experienced.

P.S. Servo is becoming a marvel, but it still runs the dinosaur.

[Joao Pedrosa]

Hi,

The browser has popularized a way of building applications that can be hard
to ignore when creating new UI toolkits, so that's why even though new UI
toolkits get created, they end up resembling the API pipelines found in the
browser. I was a few months ago creating a new UI toolkit and I found
myself struggling with the idea of trying to match some of the APIs found
in the browser, for example. I watched the beginning of the Flutter
presentation video when they talk about the Flutter rendering engine, and I
found out that we ended up with some similar approaches to those things. Of
course, Flutter was inspired by React which was itself somewhat inspired by
the browser... the main difference being that the rendering is more
straightforward, but then we may also lack the scripting language
(Javascript) that helped to make the browser popular in the first place. So
even though we may create new UI toolkits that approach what the browser
offers, we may lack the Javascript part of the equation. Also the browser's
flexible font rendering can be hard to match with less advanced toolkits.

Cheers,
Joao

Post by Benjamin Strauß
It would be much less work to update Flutter to run on desktop machines.
You would also have a rendering pipeline that is way more efficient and
saner to program in than the web platform.
The Blink/Webkit architecture is basically 15 years old. I never
understood why someone would want to use "clunky" browser engines to build
desktop applications. Maybe this will change with Mozilla's servo engine
which is a brand new system built for modern hardware.

Post by Steven Roose
So that means that it would still be possible to have something that
provides both dart:html and dart:io?
Consider Deuterium to be an Electron fork that instead of

Electron runs Node.js together with Chromium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Electron to do lower level interactions with the OS in
a way normal browsers can’t.

would be

Deuterium runs dart:io together with Dartium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Deuterium to do lower level interactions with the OS
in a way normal browsers can’t.

If you see how much effort Google invests in Flutter to make Dart usable
for Native Mobile apps by building a platform from the ground up, I guess
this would be much less work because most of the groundwork is already
there (being Dartium, Dart VM io and Electron).
Being able to use Dart for both server code, web apps, mobile apps and
desktop apps, would make it very appealing to developers!

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have
a Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the
bindings to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack.
It's most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Michael Francis]

Do you have a link to the video you are referencing?

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Hi,
The browser has popularized a way of building applications that can be
hard to ignore when creating new UI toolkits, so that's why even though new
UI toolkits get created, they end up resembling the API pipelines found in
the browser. I was a few months ago creating a new UI toolkit and I found
myself struggling with the idea of trying to match some of the APIs found
in the browser, for example. I watched the beginning of the Flutter
presentation video when they talk about the Flutter rendering engine, and I
found out that we ended up with some similar approaches to those things. Of
course, Flutter was inspired by React which was itself somewhat inspired by
the browser... the main difference being that the rendering is more
straightforward, but then we may also lack the scripting language
(Javascript) that helped to make the browser popular in the first place. So
even though we may create new UI toolkits that approach what the browser
offers, we may lack the Javascript part of the equation. Also the browser's
flexible font rendering can be hard to match with less advanced toolkits.
Cheers,
Joao

Post by Benjamin Strauß
It would be much less work to update Flutter to run on desktop machines.
You would also have a rendering pipeline that is way more efficient and
saner to program in than the web platform.
The Blink/Webkit architecture is basically 15 years old. I never
understood why someone would want to use "clunky" browser engines to build
desktop applications. Maybe this will change with Mozilla's servo engine
which is a brand new system built for modern hardware.

Post by Steven Roose
So that means that it would still be possible to have something that
provides both dart:html and dart:io?
Consider Deuterium to be an Electron fork that instead of

Electron runs Node.js together with Chromium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Electron to do lower level interactions with the OS in
a way normal browsers can’t.

would be

Deuterium runs dart:io together with Dartium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Deuterium to do lower level interactions with the OS
in a way normal browsers can’t.

If you see how much effort Google invests in Flutter to make Dart usable
for Native Mobile apps by building a platform from the ground up, I guess
this would be much less work because most of the groundwork is already
there (being Dartium, Dart VM io and Electron).
Being able to use Dart for both server code, web apps, mobile apps and
desktop apps, would make it very appealing to developers!

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have
a Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the
bindings to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack.
It's most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Joao Pedrosa]

Hi,

It was this one:

Cheers,
Joao

Post by Michael Francis
Do you have a link to the video you are referencing?

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Hi,
The browser has popularized a way of building applications that can be
hard to ignore when creating new UI toolkits, so that's why even though new
UI toolkits get created, they end up resembling the API pipelines found in
the browser. I was a few months ago creating a new UI toolkit and I found
myself struggling with the idea of trying to match some of the APIs found
in the browser, for example. I watched the beginning of the Flutter
presentation video when they talk about the Flutter rendering engine, and I
found out that we ended up with some similar approaches to those things. Of
course, Flutter was inspired by React which was itself somewhat inspired by
the browser... the main difference being that the rendering is more
straightforward, but then we may also lack the scripting language
(Javascript) that helped to make the browser popular in the first place. So
even though we may create new UI toolkits that approach what the browser
offers, we may lack the Javascript part of the equation. Also the browser's
flexible font rendering can be hard to match with less advanced toolkits.
Cheers,
Joao

Post by Benjamin Strauß
It would be much less work to update Flutter to run on desktop machines.
You would also have a rendering pipeline that is way more efficient and
saner to program in than the web platform.
The Blink/Webkit architecture is basically 15 years old. I never
understood why someone would want to use "clunky" browser engines to build
desktop applications. Maybe this will change with Mozilla's servo engine
which is a brand new system built for modern hardware.

Post by Steven Roose
So that means that it would still be possible to have something that
provides both dart:html and dart:io?
Consider Deuterium to be an Electron fork that instead of

Electron runs Node.js together with Chromium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Electron to do lower level interactions with the OS in
a way normal browsers can’t.

would be

Deuterium runs dart:io together with Dartium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Deuterium to do lower level interactions with the OS
in a way normal browsers can’t.

If you see how much effort Google invests in Flutter to make Dart
usable for Native Mobile apps by building a platform from the ground up, I
guess this would be much less work because most of the groundwork is
already there (being Dartium, Dart VM io and Electron).
Being able to use Dart for both server code, web apps, mobile apps and
desktop apps, would make it very appealing to developers!

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to
have a Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the
bindings to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack.
It's most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Steven Roose]

It's on the Flutter homepage. I saw it too recently. On my phone right now.

Post by Michael Francis
Do you have a link to the video you are referencing?

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Hi,
The browser has popularized a way of building applications that can be
hard to ignore when creating new UI toolkits, so that's why even though new
UI toolkits get created, they end up resembling the API pipelines found in
the browser. I was a few months ago creating a new UI toolkit and I found
myself struggling with the idea of trying to match some of the APIs found
in the browser, for example. I watched the beginning of the Flutter
presentation video when they talk about the Flutter rendering engine, and I
found out that we ended up with some similar approaches to those things. Of
course, Flutter was inspired by React which was itself somewhat inspired by
the browser... the main difference being that the rendering is more
straightforward, but then we may also lack the scripting language
(Javascript) that helped to make the browser popular in the first place. So
even though we may create new UI toolkits that approach what the browser
offers, we may lack the Javascript part of the equation. Also the browser's
flexible font rendering can be hard to match with less advanced toolkits.
Cheers,
Joao

Post by Benjamin Strauß
It would be much less work to update Flutter to run on desktop machines.
You would also have a rendering pipeline that is way more efficient and
saner to program in than the web platform.
The Blink/Webkit architecture is basically 15 years old. I never
understood why someone would want to use "clunky" browser engines to build
desktop applications. Maybe this will change with Mozilla's servo engine
which is a brand new system built for modern hardware.

Post by Steven Roose
So that means that it would still be possible to have something that
provides both dart:html and dart:io?
Consider Deuterium to be an Electron fork that instead of

Electron runs Node.js together with Chromium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Electron to do lower level interactions with the OS in
a way normal browsers can’t.

would be

Deuterium runs dart:io together with Dartium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Deuterium to do lower level interactions with the OS
in a way normal browsers can’t.

If you see how much effort Google invests in Flutter to make Dart
usable for Native Mobile apps by building a platform from the ground up, I
guess this would be much less work because most of the groundwork is
already there (being Dartium, Dart VM io and Electron).
Being able to use Dart for both server code, web apps, mobile apps and
desktop apps, would make it very appealing to developers!

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to
have a Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the
bindings to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack.
It's most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Benjamin Strauß]

Javascript did not help to make the browser popular. The browser helped to
make javascript popular. Nobody cares about javascript because it's a good
language.

Flutter has Dart. I don't see how that is a disadvantage over Javascript.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Hi,
The browser has popularized a way of building applications that can be
hard to ignore when creating new UI toolkits, so that's why even though new
UI toolkits get created, they end up resembling the API pipelines found in
the browser. I was a few months ago creating a new UI toolkit and I found
myself struggling with the idea of trying to match some of the APIs found
in the browser, for example. I watched the beginning of the Flutter
presentation video when they talk about the Flutter rendering engine, and I
found out that we ended up with some similar approaches to those things. Of
course, Flutter was inspired by React which was itself somewhat inspired by
the browser... the main difference being that the rendering is more
straightforward, but then we may also lack the scripting language
(Javascript) that helped to make the browser popular in the first place. So
even though we may create new UI toolkits that approach what the browser
offers, we may lack the Javascript part of the equation. Also the browser's
flexible font rendering can be hard to match with less advanced toolkits.
Cheers,
Joao

Post by Benjamin Strauß
It would be much less work to update Flutter to run on desktop machines.
You would also have a rendering pipeline that is way more efficient and
saner to program in than the web platform.
The Blink/Webkit architecture is basically 15 years old. I never
understood why someone would want to use "clunky" browser engines to build
desktop applications. Maybe this will change with Mozilla's servo engine
which is a brand new system built for modern hardware.

Post by Steven Roose
So that means that it would still be possible to have something that
provides both dart:html and dart:io?
Consider Deuterium to be an Electron fork that instead of

Electron runs Node.js together with Chromium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Electron to do lower level interactions with the OS in
a way normal browsers can’t.

would be

Deuterium runs dart:io together with Dartium to create a shell for the
app, and this allows Deuterium to do lower level interactions with the OS
in a way normal browsers can’t.

If you see how much effort Google invests in Flutter to make Dart usable
for Native Mobile apps by building a platform from the ground up, I guess
this would be much less work because most of the groundwork is already
there (being Dartium, Dart VM io and Electron).
Being able to use Dart for both server code, web apps, mobile apps and
desktop apps, would make it very appealing to developers!

Just a minor point - it's not that Dartium is being changed not to have
a Dart VM. There's still a Dart VM there, the difference is that the
bindings to the DOM are being done via JS Interop rather than via C++ calls.

Post by Daniel Danilatos
+1 was just thinking about electron + dart

Post by John Ryan
Electron is the platform used to create apps like Atom and Slack.
It's most interesting feature is that Electron apps have access to multiple
WebKit windows, and can also take advantage of of node.js libraries. In
addition to that, there are also platform-specific APIs for notifications,
menu bar, dock etc.
https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome-electron
http://tangiblejs.com/posts/nw-js-electron-compared
1. use the chrome package to create a Chrome app
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/chrome
2. use a thin dart wrapper around Electron, i.e.
https://github.com/rwl/electron
3. Fork / rewrite Electron with an embedded Dart VM
I'm curious if anyone else has given thought to this, and if Flutter
plans to support Desktop applications.
Cheers!
-John
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[Lex Berezhny]

Also the browser's flexible font rendering can be hard to match with less
advanced toolkits.

Flutter was born from Chrome sources. I don't know for sure if the font
handling code is still the same but if the Flutter team replaced it with
something else I expect that they would at least make it as good as or
better than the Chrome version.

The GitHub flutter/flutter repo is mostly the Dart source behind Flutter.
The Chrome lineage is in a different repo:

https://github.com/flutter/engine

That's where you will find skia, mojo and other C++ libs that are/were
shared with Chrome.

- lex

[John Ryan]

#2 would be the easiest to implement (and maintain!), but it would just be a wrapper around node.js, whereas #3 could use dart:io