[dart-misc] Does Dart still deserves its name?

[Marcello Dias]

Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a clean
VM.

See this in Youtube

Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word that
he said.


I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.

Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.

My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was written
in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20 years ago
also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.


But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today than
it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.

In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know have
time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.

But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0 porting,and
the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and maybe
in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.

Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.

If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?

Thanks,
Marcello

[Marcello Dias]

It seems the biggest advantages of DART are the language Itself(TypeScript
is a toy),
and the fact that you can use it in the server side.

Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a clean
VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word that
he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today than
it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know have
time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0 porting,and
the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and maybe
in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

[Marcello Dias]

Ok.
Since nobody replied me ,it seems that Google Still believes
,and very much in Dart,since they based their new mobile
framework flutter in it.
I think some people are too busy with Google IO 2016 that they donÂŽt
have time to replie anything.
What is really sorry is the "help from the comunity" wich is very weak
if compared to some years ago.

Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
It seems the biggest advantages of DART are the language Itself(TypeScript
is a toy),
and the fact that you can use it in the server side.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Jan Mostert]

Have you tried Slack? Most of the Darters are there now

Post by Marcello Dias
Ok.
Since nobody replied me ,it seems that Google Still believes
,and very much in Dart,since they based their new mobile
framework flutter in it.
I think some people are too busy with Google IO 2016 that they donÂŽt
have time to replie anything.
What is really sorry is the "help from the comunity" wich is very weak
if compared to some years ago.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
It seems the biggest advantages of DART are the language
Itself(TypeScript is a toy),
and the fact that you can use it in the server side.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Jan Mostert]

dartlang.slack.com

Post by Jan Mostert
Have you tried Slack? Most of the Darters are there now

Post by Marcello Dias
Ok.
Since nobody replied me ,it seems that Google Still believes
,and very much in Dart,since they based their new mobile
framework flutter in it.
I think some people are too busy with Google IO 2016 that they donÂŽt
have time to replie anything.
What is really sorry is the "help from the comunity" wich is very weak
if compared to some years ago.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
It seems the biggest advantages of DART are the language
Itself(TypeScript is a toy),
and the fact that you can use it in the server side.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really
disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted
less attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only
think DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in
its own VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Marcello Dias]

It seems SLACK is more to develop Executable for mobile applications not to
develop RIA+Saas applications.

Post by Jan Mostert
dartlang.slack.com

Post by Jan Mostert
Have you tried Slack? Most of the Darters are there now

Post by Marcello Dias
Ok.
Since nobody replied me ,it seems that Google Still believes
,and very much in Dart,since they based their new mobile
framework flutter in it.
I think some people are too busy with Google IO 2016 that they donÂŽt
have time to replie anything.
What is really sorry is the "help from the comunity" wich is very weak
if compared to some years ago.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
It seems the biggest advantages of DART are the language
Itself(TypeScript is a toy),
and the fact that you can use it in the server side.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have
chosen TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in
the same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really
disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it
is affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have
a Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems
going nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted
less attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only
think DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in
its own VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
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[Steve Lympany]

Hi,

First, I agree with much of your first post. But I am not sure why you
worry about the name "Dart". I don't think it's an acronym. And it didn't
particularly convey much to me when I first discovered it.

I hope it succeeds. It needs more attention and marketting. Companies (and
developers) need to hear the word Dart, so they say "oh, yeah, I've heard
of that - I'm happy you develop with it"

cheers
S

Post by Marcello Dias
Ok.
Since nobody replied me ,it seems that Google Still believes
,and very much in Dart,since they based their new mobile
framework flutter in it.
I think some people are too busy with Google IO 2016 that they donÂŽt
have time to replie anything.
What is really sorry is the "help from the comunity" wich is very weak
if compared to some years ago.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
It seems the biggest advantages of DART are the language
Itself(TypeScript is a toy),
and the fact that you can use it in the server side.
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Marcello Dias]

In fact IÂŽm not worried about the name itself,just to remind that Google
has forgotten the main goal of the project,Dart is no more the DART of
programming languages,at least not in the client side.
Developers hate when a company donÂŽt stay with its promises.
Believe me or not,Google have a bad reputation of changing plans,or even
kill products without ceremony.
I myself think its by design,its empiric ,do whatever needed to make it as
good as possible.
But it is really annoying for early adopters.
Imagine someone that invested a lot in web uI,than changed to Polymer.dart
and now realize that probably will have
to change everything to Vanilla Polymer(If Polymer.Dart is really dead).

Marcello

[Filipe Morgado]

I can recall only one premise that changed, that the Dart VM is not going
into Chrome any more.
It wasn't going into any other browser any way.
And I think the Web is on a better path with WebAssembly.

All the changes to Polymer and Angular are a common thing for such
experimental projects.

Dart is still Dart, a language that transpiles to JS, like many others,
with it's own dedicated VM, like no other.

It all seems quiet, not only because of Google I/O (I'm not sure Dart will
be there), but because developers have a lot on their plate.
Important features and targets are coming: Strong mode, Flutter, Dartino,
AoT compilation for ARM and the Atom plugin is getting frequent
enhancements.

All roadmaps went down the drain, but projects like this are a little
unpredictable. Overall, I like where this is going.

DEPs and meeting notes have stopped. I don't think it's a bad thing.
Instead of debating each feature individually, Dart 2.0 needs to be debated
as a whole for coherence.
Well, IF 2.0 is indeed coming.

I hope Flutter and Dartino will make Dart more performance-focused, we're
not only comparing ourselves to JS anymore.

On a side note, I don't think DART ever existed, I think it was always Dart
(or Dash initially). It's not an acronym.
And I think the name reflects the language/tools. When I start a project,
Dart takes straight to where I wanna be.

[Marcello Dias]

It is good to hear that at least Google still beleaves in Dart.
But for me is disgusting that PolymerTS is Polymer 1.0 compliant and
Polymer.Dart does not
even have a date to born.
I know,It is an open source project,development can be done by anyone
interested, and so on.
But at least for me,without Polymer Dart is useless,I CanÂŽt imagine the
reason why it is not a priority.

Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a clean
VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word that
he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today than
it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know have
time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0 porting,and
the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and maybe
in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

[Marcello Dias]

If the reason of not having a VM is WebAssembly thatÂŽs good,but they didnÂŽt
say that clearly.
Maybe it is even possible to use Polymer.DART without care with the future,
thatÂŽs why IÂŽm asking to see what actual Dartisans think about.

Marcello

[seb mitchell]

My understanding is that to get the Dart VM in chrome,
Oilpan project was started to move Chrome's rendering engine, Blink, from
reference counts to a GC.

Unfortunately instead of this being completed in 2014,
it was not until a few weeks a go that the 1st release of Oilpan made it to
chrome stable.

https://www.chromium.org/blink/memory-team

I think the initial goal of Dart VM in Chrome has resulted a better
JavaScript language and a better Chrome browser.

Chrome is more secure due to Oilpan, with the removable of reference count
related crashes and leaks.
Dart vm work used to improve V8 performance.

Seb

Post by Marcello Dias
If the reason of not having a VM is WebAssembly thatÂŽs good,but they
didnÂŽt say that clearly.
Maybe it is even possible to use Polymer.DART without care with the future,
thatÂŽs why IÂŽm asking to see what actual Dartisans think about.
Marcello

[Matthew Butler]

Dart, not DART (The original logos showed Dart in all capital letters which
led people to believe it was an acronym which it is not, see issue 12186
which I originally raised[1]) is so named because it was meant to imply
speedy, quick and nibble. Original names also referred to Dash which was
mentioned in a leaked memo prior to release[2] (From my understanding, Dash
was later abandoned due to copyright issues etc). It's name was based not
only on an improvement over Javascripts runtime speeds, but also start up
speeds, development speeds (I find it much faster to code with Dart than
Javascript, particularly when it comes to the debugging stage).

Dart is far from abandoned. It's used in several areas of Google outside of
Dart itself, including Ad-Words (one of the biggest income sources for
google)[3]. As well this year had not one but two (2) codelabs at Google
I/O[4]. It's true, we don't see Dart VM in Chrome and probably won't
anytime in the near future if ever. I'm still a little bummed by this
myself, but it doesn't detract from Dart's benefits in the least, not the
least of which is using Dart on the server and client side. And in some
ways, by focusing closer on the compile-to-javascript solution only for
Dart they ensure that client side code will be optimized far greater. There
were a number of factors that would have made getting the Dart VM into
Chrome a really tough sell. Not just for Chrome, but for Mozilla, Opera,
and Safari(webkit).

Matt

[1]: https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/issues/12186
[2]: http://googlesystem.blogspot.ca/2011/09/dash-googles-alternative-to-javascript.html
[3]: http://news.dartlang.org/2016/03/the-new-adwords-ui-uses-dart-we-asked.html
[4]: https://plus.google.com/+filiphracek/posts/CQY5cFi9Etu

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a clean
VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word that
he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today than
it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know have
time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0 porting,and
the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and maybe
in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

[seb mitchell]

I posted over at the futter dev list about android apps on chromeos,
wondering about flutter dev options on chromeos.

Anyway, we may not be "getting the Dart VM into Chrome" any time soon,
but dart via flutter via android on chromebooks/chromeos is happening.

I note also that chromebook outsold mac last quarter due to them being a
great option for US schools.

"Bring Your Android App to Chrome OS - Google I/O 2016"

Chromebooks that will work with Android apps next month with chrome 53.
Acer Chromebook R11
Asus Chromebook Flip
Google Chromebook Pixel (2015)
and 60 more later in 2016
https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/6401474

Post by Matthew Butler
Dart, not DART (The original logos showed Dart in all capital letters
which led people to believe it was an acronym which it is not, see issue
12186 which I originally raised[1]) is so named because it was meant to
imply speedy, quick and nibble. Original names also referred to Dash which
was mentioned in a leaked memo prior to release[2] (From my understanding,
Dash was later abandoned due to copyright issues etc). It's name was based
not only on an improvement over Javascripts runtime speeds, but also start
up speeds, development speeds (I find it much faster to code with Dart than
Javascript, particularly when it comes to the debugging stage).
Dart is far from abandoned. It's used in several areas of Google outside
of Dart itself, including Ad-Words (one of the biggest income sources for
google)[3]. As well this year had not one but two (2) codelabs at Google
I/O[4]. It's true, we don't see Dart VM in Chrome and probably won't
anytime in the near future if ever. I'm still a little bummed by this
myself, but it doesn't detract from Dart's benefits in the least, not the
least of which is using Dart on the server and client side. And in some
ways, by focusing closer on the compile-to-javascript solution only for
Dart they ensure that client side code will be optimized far greater. There
were a number of factors that would have made getting the Dart VM into
Chrome a really tough sell. Not just for Chrome, but for Mozilla, Opera,
and Safari(webkit).
Matt
[1]: https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/issues/12186
http://googlesystem.blogspot.ca/2011/09/dash-googles-alternative-to-javascript.html
http://news.dartlang.org/2016/03/the-new-adwords-ui-uses-dart-we-asked.html
[4]: https://plus.google.com/+filiphracek/posts/CQY5cFi9Etu

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

[Marcello Dias]

Since Google,Microsoft and Mozilla are behind WebAssembly,its clear that
this was the key
factor of not having a Dart Vm integrated on Chrome,so Dart can still be
called Dart.It will probably
run even faster than it does today.It could have been announced this way,so
Dart would have not been
so criticized.Critics keep programmers away,less programmers using it,less
new systems written in it,
less jobs.
I still waiting to see something very big,made with Polymer 1.0,using
MariaDB or PostgreSQL.
More Samples(Java Pet Store was one of the big reasons of Java users base
growth).

Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a clean
VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word that
he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today than
it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know have
time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0 porting,and
the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and maybe
in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Marcello Dias
Since Google,Microsoft and Mozilla are behind WebAssembly,its clear that
this was the key
factor of not having a Dart Vm integrated on Chrome,

This conclusion seems rather arbitrary. WebAssembly has yet to show that it
provides any value besides running legacy C code in the browser.

Post by Marcello Dias
so Dart can still be called Dart.It will probably
run even faster than it does today.It could have been announced this
way,so Dart would have not been
so criticized.Critics keep programmers away,less programmers using it,less
new systems written in it,
less jobs.
I still waiting to see something very big,made with Polymer 1.0,using
MariaDB or PostgreSQL.
More Samples(Java Pet Store was one of the big reasons of Java users base
growth).
Marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

[Marcello Dias]

Someone just replied in another thread that polymer.dart is far from being
dead.
In fact the new version was only not realeased due to a really difficult to
find Bug
that is generating an error only in I.E.

https://github.com/dart-lang/polymer-dart/issues/682

[Cogman]

Dart is about as dead as GWT.

In other words, still used, but not generally.

I think ultimately, there was never enough community backing to make dart
"the next big thing". Even typescript, which was (IMO) much more
successful than Dart, is struggling to attract JS developers.

There are a few things that went wrong with dart.

First off, I don't think dart matured enough before the big public debut
and 1.0ification. It think it was racing to compete with typescript and in
the process released a somewhat buggy product.

I think that Dart development very noticeably slowed down externally. At
one point, dart was all about "Look at just how fast we are, and how fast
we are getting". Now it is sort of a sideline thing.

I think that big name dart things like "Angular Dart" finished in horrible
positions. No joke, angular dart was broken for almost a full year because
almost all of the angular dart devs moved from angular dart to angular 2.0.
That sort of thing is simply unforgivable. You can't leave a project's
last release horribly broken (some method was deprecated and removed
without the replacement and literally the only solution was going backwards
a version).

And I think the fact that dart was a second class citizen in Angular 2.0
was really sort of a death blow. It painted the picture that "not even
google internally believes in dart enough to make it a first class citizen
in one of their most popular projects". I mean, they started in pure
javascript, then AtScript (a subset of Typescript) and then just
TypeScript. Dart had too high a barrier to be used as the foundation
language.

It also just does not help that the standard library saw a whole bunch of
flux for a 1.0 release. Remember Isolates? The next big thing in
concurrent programming? Yeah...

Now dart is being put in a weird place of "Hey you can run it both server
and client side. neat".

I just feel like when it was most important, Dart really fumbled the
community relations ball. I've not been following it for a while now, and
a quick browse through the docs really do look a lot better than they used
to be. But I feel like it was just too little too late.

Here's to hoping that web assembly saves us from Javascript.

Post by Marcello Dias
Someone just replied in another thread that polymer.dart is far from being
dead.
In fact the new version was only not realeased due to a really difficult
to find Bug
that is generating an error only in I.E.
https://github.com/dart-lang/polymer-dart/issues/682
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Is there any purpose in this post?

Post by Cogman
Dart is about as dead as GWT.
In other words, still used, but not generally.
I think ultimately, there was never enough community backing to make dart
"the next big thing". Even typescript, which was (IMO) much more
successful than Dart, is struggling to attract JS developers.

TypeScipt just starts to become successful.

Post by Cogman
There are a few things that went wrong with dart.
First off, I don't think dart matured enough before the big public debut
and 1.0ification. It think it was racing to compete with typescript and in
the process released a somewhat buggy product.
I think that Dart development very noticeably slowed down externally. At
one point, dart was all about "Look at just how fast we are, and how fast
we are getting". Now it is sort of a sideline thing.
I think that big name dart things like "Angular Dart" finished in horrible
positions. No joke, angular dart was broken for almost a full year because
almost all of the angular dart devs moved from angular dart to angular 2.0.
That sort of thing is simply unforgivable. You can't leave a project's
last release horribly broken (some method was deprecated and removed
without the replacement and literally the only solution was going backwards
a version).

So you are complaining that Dart 1.0 wasn't better in every regard, than
everything else out there for 5-30 years already.
I guess Dart is not the first software project where 1.0 wasn't yet perfect
;-)

Post by Cogman
And I think the fact that dart was a second class citizen in Angular 2.0
was really sort of a death blow. It painted the picture that "not even
google internally believes in dart enough to make it a first class citizen
in one of their most popular projects". I mean, they started in pure
javascript, then AtScript (a subset of Typescript) and then just
TypeScript. Dart had too high a barrier to be used as the foundation
language.
It also just does not help that the standard library saw a whole bunch of
flux for a 1.0 release. Remember Isolates? The next big thing in
concurrent programming? Yeah...
Now dart is being put in a weird place of "Hey you can run it both server
and client side. neat".
I just feel like when it was most important, Dart really fumbled the
community relations ball. I've not been following it for a while now, and
a quick browse through the docs really do look a lot better than they used
to be. But I feel like it was just too little too late.
Here's to hoping that web assembly saves us from Javascript.

Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the developer
community has seen so far :D

Post by Cogman

Post by Marcello Dias
Someone just replied in another thread that polymer.dart is far from
being dead.
In fact the new version was only not realeased due to a really difficult
to find Bug
that is generating an error only in I.E.
https://github.com/dart-lang/polymer-dart/issues/682
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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"Dart Misc" group.
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[Daniel Davidson]

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Is there any purpose in this post?

Reasonable question. Maybe one of the purposes is to create dialog and
observe reactions. Think about it - if you liked dart and wanted it to
succeed but had doubts, warranted or not, as to the commitment behind it
you might want to stir the pot a little to see who is still passionate and
to what extent. I'm not saying this is the sole purpose or that it is a
good approach.

[Cogman]

The purpose of the post is just lamenting where dart was and where it went.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
So you are complaining that Dart 1.0 wasn't better in every regard, than

everything else out there for 5-30 years already.
I guess Dart is not the first software project where 1.0 wasn't yet perfect
;-)

Not at all. I'm saying that where and when it counted, dart fell face
first.

On their webpage, they advertised angular dart as an amazing example of how
awesome dart was... yet the project was severely broken.

Their documentation remained really far out of date for a very long time.

And it was very apparent that the team size working on dart shrank
significantly and progress slowed almost to zero.

I don't demand perfection, but highlighting on your front page a project
that is broken, examples that are old/broken, etc, leaves a VERY bad taste
in the external community.

Java, Go, Rust. These are all languages that (semi-recently) released with
that didn't have broken example, projects, etc advertised on their front
page.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the developer

community has seen so far :D

1.0 doesn't need to be perfect. What needs to be perfect is ANYTHING that
the language highlights as an awesome feature or library.

If the first thing you see in a new language is some horribly broken
library with mailing lists and stack overflow of unanswered questions.

You can only make a first impression once, and ultimately, that is what
people will use for a long time to determine whether or not they will use
your product. Dart blew the first impression. So now you got a bunch of
enthusiasts that will never adopt the language, and a bunch of slow
adopters that won't go for it either because nobody is using it. New
languages have to win enthusiasts if they want to be popular.

Seriously, look at Go or Rust as examples of languages that didn't blow the
first impression.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Is there any purpose in this post?

Post by Cogman
Dart is about as dead as GWT.
In other words, still used, but not generally.
I think ultimately, there was never enough community backing to make dart
"the next big thing". Even typescript, which was (IMO) much more
successful than Dart, is struggling to attract JS developers.

TypeScipt just starts to become successful.

Post by Cogman
There are a few things that went wrong with dart.
First off, I don't think dart matured enough before the big public debut
and 1.0ification. It think it was racing to compete with typescript and in
the process released a somewhat buggy product.
I think that Dart development very noticeably slowed down externally. At
one point, dart was all about "Look at just how fast we are, and how fast
we are getting". Now it is sort of a sideline thing.
I think that big name dart things like "Angular Dart" finished in
horrible positions. No joke, angular dart was broken for almost a full
year because almost all of the angular dart devs moved from angular dart to
angular 2.0. That sort of thing is simply unforgivable. You can't leave
a project's last release horribly broken (some method was deprecated and
removed without the replacement and literally the only solution was going
backwards a version).

So you are complaining that Dart 1.0 wasn't better in every regard, than
everything else out there for 5-30 years already.
I guess Dart is not the first software project where 1.0 wasn't yet
perfect ;-)

Post by Cogman
And I think the fact that dart was a second class citizen in Angular 2.0
was really sort of a death blow. It painted the picture that "not even
google internally believes in dart enough to make it a first class citizen
in one of their most popular projects". I mean, they started in pure
javascript, then AtScript (a subset of Typescript) and then just
TypeScript. Dart had too high a barrier to be used as the foundation
language.
It also just does not help that the standard library saw a whole bunch of
flux for a 1.0 release. Remember Isolates? The next big thing in
concurrent programming? Yeah...
Now dart is being put in a weird place of "Hey you can run it both server
and client side. neat".
I just feel like when it was most important, Dart really fumbled the
community relations ball. I've not been following it for a while now, and
a quick browse through the docs really do look a lot better than they used
to be. But I feel like it was just too little too late.
Here's to hoping that web assembly saves us from Javascript.

Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the developer
community has seen so far :D

Post by Cogman

Post by Marcello Dias
Someone just replied in another thread that polymer.dart is far from
being dead.
In fact the new version was only not realeased due to a really difficult
to find Bug
that is generating an error only in I.E.
https://github.com/dart-lang/polymer-dart/issues/682
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[Eduardo Teixeira Dias]

<TFAD>
Who directs today someone to AngularDart 1.0 project is just a criminal
with no basic decency and no respect for other people's' time.

AngularDart 1.0 was the kiss of death for AngularDart. Something like: Take
that shit you bozos that were dumb enough to enter this experiment. Now we
will play
with Angular2.

I still have, in production, many modules in AngularDart 0.9.9, did not
even bothered to invest the time to upgrade to 1.0

Now I'm using Angular2 (dart) for some new stuff.

My Angular 2 (dart) pray:

Good Lord, please, free Angular 2 (dart) from the AngularDart fate and
allow it to rise strong and reach 2.0 status without being dumped for some
new fancy shit like AtScript, TypeScript SomeOtherShitScript. Amen!
</TFAD>

Post by Cogman
The purpose of the post is just lamenting where dart was and where it went.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
So you are complaining that Dart 1.0 wasn't better in every regard,

than everything else out there for 5-30 years already.
I guess Dart is not the first software project where 1.0 wasn't yet
perfect ;-)
Not at all. I'm saying that where and when it counted, dart fell face
first.
On their webpage, they advertised angular dart as an amazing example of
how awesome dart was... yet the project was severely broken.
Their documentation remained really far out of date for a very long time.
And it was very apparent that the team size working on dart shrank
significantly and progress slowed almost to zero.
I don't demand perfection, but highlighting on your front page a project
that is broken, examples that are old/broken, etc, leaves a VERY bad taste
in the external community.
Java, Go, Rust. These are all languages that (semi-recently) released
with that didn't have broken example, projects, etc advertised on their
front page.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the

developer community has seen so far :D
1.0 doesn't need to be perfect. What needs to be perfect is ANYTHING that
the language highlights as an awesome feature or library.
If the first thing you see in a new language is some horribly broken
library with mailing lists and stack overflow of unanswered questions.
You can only make a first impression once, and ultimately, that is what
people will use for a long time to determine whether or not they will use
your product. Dart blew the first impression. So now you got a bunch of
enthusiasts that will never adopt the language, and a bunch of slow
adopters that won't go for it either because nobody is using it. New
languages have to win enthusiasts if they want to be popular.
Seriously, look at Go or Rust as examples of languages that didn't blow
the first impression.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Is there any purpose in this post?

Post by Cogman
Dart is about as dead as GWT.
In other words, still used, but not generally.
I think ultimately, there was never enough community backing to make
dart "the next big thing". Even typescript, which was (IMO) much more
successful than Dart, is struggling to attract JS developers.

TypeScipt just starts to become successful.

Post by Cogman
There are a few things that went wrong with dart.
First off, I don't think dart matured enough before the big public debut
and 1.0ification. It think it was racing to compete with typescript and in
the process released a somewhat buggy product.
I think that Dart development very noticeably slowed down externally.
At one point, dart was all about "Look at just how fast we are, and how
fast we are getting". Now it is sort of a sideline thing.
I think that big name dart things like "Angular Dart" finished in
horrible positions. No joke, angular dart was broken for almost a full
year because almost all of the angular dart devs moved from angular dart to
angular 2.0. That sort of thing is simply unforgivable. You can't leave
a project's last release horribly broken (some method was deprecated and
removed without the replacement and literally the only solution was going
backwards a version).

So you are complaining that Dart 1.0 wasn't better in every regard, than
everything else out there for 5-30 years already.
I guess Dart is not the first software project where 1.0 wasn't yet
perfect ;-)

Post by Cogman
And I think the fact that dart was a second class citizen in Angular 2.0
was really sort of a death blow. It painted the picture that "not even
google internally believes in dart enough to make it a first class citizen
in one of their most popular projects". I mean, they started in pure
javascript, then AtScript (a subset of Typescript) and then just
TypeScript. Dart had too high a barrier to be used as the foundation
language.
It also just does not help that the standard library saw a whole bunch
of flux for a 1.0 release. Remember Isolates? The next big thing in
concurrent programming? Yeah...
Now dart is being put in a weird place of "Hey you can run it both
server and client side. neat".
I just feel like when it was most important, Dart really fumbled the
community relations ball. I've not been following it for a while now, and
a quick browse through the docs really do look a lot better than they used
to be. But I feel like it was just too little too late.
Here's to hoping that web assembly saves us from Javascript.

Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the developer
community has seen so far :D

Post by Cogman

Post by Marcello Dias
Someone just replied in another thread that polymer.dart is far from
being dead.
In fact the new version was only not realeased due to a really
difficult to find Bug
that is generating an error only in I.E.
https://github.com/dart-lang/polymer-dart/issues/682
--
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--
Saudações,

Eduardo Teixeira Dias

------------------------------------------
Tendencies Consultoria Ltda.
Tel: [phone]
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Cogman
The purpose of the post is just lamenting where dart was and where it went.

It's fine to do that, but it's not very actionable. I can also certainly
point to many things I wish had been done differently earlier in Dart's
history, but absent a time machine, there's not much we can do about it.

What I think is more interesting is figuring out where to go forward to.

Post by Cogman
And it was very apparent that the team size working on dart shrank
significantly

I don't think the team has shrank significantly, though I can definitely
see why it looks that way on the outside.

Post by Cogman
and progress slowed almost to zero.

*Externally visible* progress, yes. Sorry about that.

Internally, we have actually been cranking pretty hard for a while. Our
internal usage is steadily increasing and we've been using that as a good
opportunity to see what kinds of changes we need to make to make those
users *really* happy. I think if we can figure that out and make Dart a
great platform for Googlers, it will also be a great platform for external
users. (Unsurprisingly, many of the things Googler Dart users ask for are
exactly the same stuff you folks ask for.)

But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Especially early in the design process when a lot of ideas get considered
and discarded, when there is lots of disagreement, and things are not
fleshed out, it's really hard to articulate the status of things without
setting expectations. Sometimes even just describing something in text
gives it more gravitas than it actually has.

It would frustrate you if we spent a lot of time describing some idea that
didn't end up panning out (which happens often), and it would burn a bunch
of our time. We *will* do that before too long, obviously. Your feedback is
hugely important! But it'll happen as things start to settle down and we
have a clearer picture of what is and isn't going to work. We're trying to
minimize thrashing and throwaway effort.

For what it's worth, I've never been more excited about the direction of
Dart than I am today. I have really high hopes for Dart 2.0.

Java, Go, Rust. These are all languages that (semi-recently) released with

Post by Cogman
that didn't have broken example, projects, etc advertised on their front
page.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the

developer community has seen so far :D
1.0 doesn't need to be perfect. What needs to be perfect is ANYTHING that
the language highlights as an awesome feature or library.
If the first thing you see in a new language is some horribly broken
library with mailing lists and stack overflow of unanswered questions.
You can only make a first impression once, and ultimately, that is what
people will use for a long time to determine whether or not they will use
your product.

I will note that Java's initial impression was of a horribly slow
interpreted language for applets that took forever to load and often
crashed. Rust today is a very different language from when they first
announced it. Remember type state?

Post by Cogman
So now you got a bunch of enthusiasts that will never adopt the language,
and a bunch of slow adopters that won't go for it either because nobody is
using it. New languages have to win enthusiasts if they want to be popular.

I totally agree. We are at the left edge of the diffusion of innovation
chart <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations>. We need to
focus on innovators and early adopters, and making a platform that's
exciting for them. After that we get them, we can transition towards a
platform that's safe and non-scary to the majority.

Cheers!

– bob

[Don Olmstead]

I keep joking on the Slack channel that while I miss the language updates,
NNBD was really interesting and lead into Union Types which are both things
I really want but have no idea of the status, I don't miss the discussion
around them as it generally devolves into a retrospective on what has gone
wrong rather than what cool stuff is in the pipe.

Here's hoping for some news about a 2.0 in the near future.

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Don Olmstead
I keep joking on the Slack channel that while I miss the language updates,
NNBD was really interesting and lead into Union Types which are both things
I really want but have no idea of the status,

No promises, obviously, but those are both very high in our list of things
to see if we can make work.

Cheers!

– bob

[Don Olmstead]

Been around here long enough to know there are no promises :). Either way
really looking forward to see how the language keeps evolving.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 3:16 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Don Olmstead
I keep joking on the Slack channel that while I miss the language
updates, NNBD was really interesting and lead into Union Types which are
both things I really want but have no idea of the status,

No promises, obviously, but those are both very high in our list of things
to see if we can make work.
Cheers!
– bob
--
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Daniel Davidson]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Cogman
The purpose of the post is just lamenting where dart was and where it went.

It's fine to do that, but it's not very actionable. I can also certainly
point to many things I wish had been done differently earlier in Dart's
history, but absent a time machine, there's not much we can do about it.

Thanks very much for responding; it is helpful. I gather by your response
you understand/appreciate the non-googler's discomfort with google's
silence. Simply complaining is not actionable, but neither is complete
radio silence. What can be done today so that there are no more regrets in
the future? It feels like certain goals were made public, like Dart VM in
browsers and when those changed there was some backlash. Now to prevent any
fuure backlash the pendulum has swung to the point of - "well, we'll not
make anything that sounds like a promise and the easiest way to achieve
that is to do our thing behind the curtain".

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
What I think is more interesting is figuring out where to go forward to.

Post by Cogman
And it was very apparent that the team size working on dart shrank
significantly

I don't think the team has shrank significantly, though I can definitely
see why it looks that way on the outside.

Post by Cogman
and progress slowed almost to zero.

*Externally visible* progress, yes. Sorry about that.
Internally, we have actually been cranking pretty hard for a while. Our
internal usage is steadily increasing and we've been using that as a good
opportunity to see what kinds of changes we need to make to make those
users *really* happy. I think if we can figure that out and make Dart a
great platform for Googlers, it will also be a great platform for external
users. (Unsurprisingly, many of the things Googler Dart users ask for are
exactly the same stuff you folks ask for.)

If you want to make users really happy a great platform is a great goal.
But you might want to also look for ways to increase external involvement.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.
Especially early in the design process when a lot of ideas get considered
and discarded, when there is lots of disagreement, and things are not
fleshed out, it's really hard to articulate the status of things without
setting expectations. Sometimes even just describing something in text
gives it more gravitas than it actually has.
It would frustrate you if we spent a lot of time describing some idea that
didn't end up panning out (which happens often), and it would burn a bunch
of our time. We *will* do that before too long, obviously. Your feedback
is hugely important! But it'll happen as things start to settle down and we
have a clearer picture of what is and isn't going to work. We're trying to
minimize thrashing and throwaway effort.
For what it's worth, I've never been more excited about the direction of
Dart than I am today. I have really high hopes for Dart 2.0.

That is great! Why? Share that excitement here more often.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Java, Go, Rust. These are all languages that (semi-recently) released

Post by Cogman
with that didn't have broken example, projects, etc advertised on their
front page.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the

developer community has seen so far :D
1.0 doesn't need to be perfect. What needs to be perfect is ANYTHING
that the language highlights as an awesome feature or library.
If the first thing you see in a new language is some horribly broken
library with mailing lists and stack overflow of unanswered questions.
You can only make a first impression once, and ultimately, that is what
people will use for a long time to determine whether or not they will use
your product.

I will note that Java's initial impression was of a horribly slow
interpreted language for applets that took forever to load and often
crashed. Rust today is a very different language from when they first
announced it. Remember type state?

Post by Cogman
So now you got a bunch of enthusiasts that will never adopt the language,
and a bunch of slow adopters that won't go for it either because nobody is
using it. New languages have to win enthusiasts if they want to be popular.

I totally agree. We are at the left edge of the diffusion of innovation
chart <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations>. We need
to focus on innovators and early adopters, and making a platform that's
exciting for them. After that we get them, we can transition towards a
platform that's safe and non-scary to the majority.

The platform is already exciting enough. Excitement comes from involvement.
Holding off the sharing of know-how, experience, progress implies making
those already interested wait and that comes at a cost.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Cheers!
– bob

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Daniel Davidson

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Cogman
The purpose of the post is just lamenting where dart was and where it went.

It's fine to do that, but it's not very actionable. I can also certainly
point to many things I wish had been done differently earlier in Dart's
history, but absent a time machine, there's not much we can do about it.

Thanks very much for responding; it is helpful. I gather by your response
you understand/appreciate the non-googler's discomfort with google's
silence.

I totally do. *I'm* uncomfortable with it, and I'm currently part of the
problem. It's not like I've been spending a lot of time here or writing up
meeting notes.

Post by Daniel Davidson
What can be done today so that there are no more regrets in the future?

Right, and that question has a lot of levels of meta-ness. At the simplest
level, it's about shipping language features that help users make great
apps. But how do we design those? OK, so now we need to figure out a good
design process that helps us correctly evaluate and implement features that
are relevant to real users. How do we do *that?*

It's tricky, and a lot of it is "soft" work that involves just building
relationships between people on the team, getting the right people in the
right roles, figuring out meeting schedules and formats, etc. etc.

When you look at really successful, great products, they often came from a
small, really tight-knit team of people with the right blend of diversity
and similarities, operating in an evironment where they had access to the
right data and feedback. But if you ask them *how* they got themselves set
up like that, they probably couldn't tell you.

That's what we're working on now (along with more concrete discussions
around what Dart 2.0 will look like, of course), and it's hard to write
that down.

It feels like certain goals were made public, like Dart VM in browsers and

Post by Daniel Davidson
when those changed there was some backlash. Now to prevent any fuure
backlash the pendulum has swung to the point of - "well, we'll not make
anything that sounds like a promise and the easiest way to achieve that is
to do our thing behind the curtain".

Sure, part of being quiet is not wanting to make promises that don't work
out. But I don't think that's the main reason. I think it's more that what
we're working on is still pretty ill-formed and we're trying to move as
fast as we can. It really is just difficult and time-consuming to write
meeting notes about a discussion that wandered all over a number of
loosely-related topics and end up with something that that a person with
little context can actually understand and get value from.

Post by Daniel Davidson

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Internally, we have actually been cranking pretty hard for a while. Our
internal usage is steadily increasing and we've been using that as a good
opportunity to see what kinds of changes we need to make to make those
users *really* happy. I think if we can figure that out and make Dart a
great platform for Googlers, it will also be a great platform for external
users. (Unsurprisingly, many of the things Googler Dart users ask for are
exactly the same stuff you folks ask for.)

If you want to make users really happy a great platform is a great goal.
But you might want to also look for ways to increase external involvement.

Yes! External contribution—both in terms of code and just feedback—is
hugely important.

For what it's worth, I've never been more excited about the direction of

Post by Daniel Davidson

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Dart than I am today. I have really high hopes for Dart 2.0.

That is great! Why? Share that excitement here more often.

I—we—will, as soon as we've got some more consensus on it.

The platform is already exciting enough. Excitement comes from involvement.

Post by Daniel Davidson
Holding off the sharing of know-how, experience, progress implies making
those already interested wait and that comes at a cost.

Yeah, I totally get that. The clock never stops ticking.

Cheers!

– bob

[Benjamin Strauß]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?

[Michael Francis]

You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
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[Hayden Jones]

The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my interest in
Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier to
repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new ones
with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.

Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how Dart
turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the Dart
language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I can't
risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.

Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to prefer
IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack, and the blatant dismissal of
growth strategies, I think Dart is no longer worth most developers' time.
The ECMA standard is a good thing, and maybe an implementation will be
cultivated by a team that actually gives a shit about FOSS, but until then
it's dust in the wind to me.

Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Frank Pepermans]

See that is exactly the problem with the industry currently,

when you engage on a new product, it usually is a story that lasts several
months and even years,
there's a clea

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my interest
in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier to
repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new ones
with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how Dart
turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the Dart
language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I can't
risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack, and the blatant
dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no longer worth most
developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and maybe an
implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a shit
about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my interest
in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier to
repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new ones
with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how Dart
turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the Dart
language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I can't
risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how the
community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion than IRC
(didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually the case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no longer
worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and maybe
an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a shit
about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Hayden Jones]

Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my interest
in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier to
repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new ones
with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how Dart
turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the Dart
language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I can't
risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how the
community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion than IRC
(didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually the case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no longer
worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and maybe
an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a shit
about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that
we'll have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to
both move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both
of those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Kévin Platel]

Kotlin did this choice too, I didn't heard any complain in the Kotlin
community.
IRC is not as user-friendly as Slack, so which alternative do you propose ?

But I think that this discussion is out of the scope of this thread/topic =)

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my interest
in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier to
repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new ones
with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how Dart
turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the Dart
language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I can't
risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how the
community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion than
IRC (didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually the
case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no
longer worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and
maybe an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a
shit about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that
we'll have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to
both move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both
of those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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--
PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo

[Lex Berezhny]

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Slack is more accessible and a better longer term solution.

With IRC you have to always be connected to not miss anything and if you
want an archive you have to pay for it (irccloud.com, etc).

With slack you get an archive of all previous conversations, it's instantly
searchable and there are a multitude of clients for different platforms.

IRC is not a comparable alternative to Slack.

[Hayden Jones]

Slack is bloated. IRC logs can be stored easily, most channels on freenode
are publicly logged and it's super cheap: just store text.

IRC is *not *comparable to Slack. Slack is not a good solution. IRC is.

Post by Lex Berezhny

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Slack is more accessible and a better longer term solution.
With IRC you have to always be connected to not miss anything and if you
want an archive you have to pay for it (irccloud.com, etc).
With slack you get an archive of all previous conversations, it's
instantly searchable and there are a multitude of clients for different
platforms.
IRC is not a comparable alternative to Slack.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

That's nice, calling people chatting on Slack unethical.

[Hayden Jones]

If the truth hurts, maybe you're wrong.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

That's nice, calling people chatting on Slack unethical.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Hayden Jones
If the truth hurts, maybe you're wrong.

Wrong about what? That I prefer Slack?
You are definitely wrong about trying to convert Slack users to IRC users
by annoy people with useless discussions.

[Eduardo Teixeira Dias]

In the last dart summit the message was: Angular 2 is the best choice if
you are a WEB Dart developer, then, in the last Angular 2 event, no mention
of Dart......

Angular 2 developed in TypeScript, not in Dart. Really bad PR for Dart.

No Angular 2 Material for Dart.

No Server side rendering for Angular 2 Dart.

Angular 2 are generating good results in our pilot projects but the PR
problem is big. Trust is needed in order to sell the platform to customers
for big internal projects.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my interest
in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier to
repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new ones
with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how Dart
turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the Dart
language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I can't
risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how the
community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion than
IRC (didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually the
case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no
longer worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and
maybe an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a
shit about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that
we'll have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to
both move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both
of those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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--
Saudações,

Eduardo Teixeira Dias

------------------------------------------
Tendencies Consultoria Ltda.
Tel: [phone]
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192

[Michael Francis]

The biggest problem with Angular. Is that the Angular team is just behind.
Dart will be supported with both Angular and Angular Material. As a huge
fan of Dart I do believe Typescript was the correct decision for the
Angular team. Angular has a much bigger audience than just Dart developers.

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 11:10 AM Eduardo Teixeira Dias <

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias
In the last dart summit the message was: Angular 2 is the best choice if
you are a WEB Dart developer, then, in the last Angular 2 event, no mention
of Dart......
Angular 2 developed in TypeScript, not in Dart. Really bad PR for Dart.
No Angular 2 Material for Dart.
No Server side rendering for Angular 2 Dart.
Angular 2 are generating good results in our pilot projects but the PR
problem is big. Trust is needed in order to sell the platform to customers
for big internal projects.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my
interest in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier
to repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new
ones with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how
Dart turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the
Dart language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I
can't risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how the
community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion than
IRC (didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually the
case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no
longer worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and
maybe an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a
shit about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that
we'll have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to
both move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both
of those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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Saudações,
Eduardo Teixeira Dias
------------------------------------------
Tendencies Consultoria Ltda.
Tel: [phone]
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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[Steve Lympany]

Lots of emotion here. Google tries to be open, and is getting lambasted for it, by some. Nevertheless understandable. Should Google have kept Dart hidden until it was mature, and Google itself had a full plan?

It seems to me that some are angry *because* they want Dart to succeed, maybe?
But the quietness *is* worrying - until I see threads/activity like this. Actually a good thread! These posts are essential, just to let people know it's not dead. Reassurance. Even if some language ideas, plans etc are eventually dropped. Maybe some small posts under dart-lang announcements - a bit of news, will Dart die if Trump gets in...?

[Marcello Dias]

I think google wanted to introduce a better way to do both Mobile and Web
applications,not be atractive and popular,it seems that other teams wants
to be chearleaders them.

Post by Michael Francis
The biggest problem with Angular. Is that the Angular team is just behind.
Dart will be supported with both Angular and Angular Material. As a huge
fan of Dart I do believe Typescript was the correct decision for the
Angular team. Angular has a much bigger audience than just Dart developers.
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 11:10 AM Eduardo Teixeira Dias <

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias
In the last dart summit the message was: Angular 2 is the best choice if
you are a WEB Dart developer, then, in the last Angular 2 event, no mention
of Dart......
Angular 2 developed in TypeScript, not in Dart. Really bad PR for Dart.
No Angular 2 Material for Dart.
No Server side rendering for Angular 2 Dart.
Angular 2 are generating good results in our pilot projects but the PR
problem is big. Trust is needed in order to sell the platform to customers
for big internal projects.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my
interest in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier
to repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new
ones with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how
Dart turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the
Dart language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I
can't risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how the
community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion than
IRC (didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually the
case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no
longer worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and
maybe an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a
shit about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that
we'll have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to
both move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both
of those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Saudações,
Eduardo Teixeira Dias
------------------------------------------
Tendencies Consultoria Ltda.
Tel: [phone]
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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[Marcello Dias]

I followed all the advices and forgot DART for a while,maybe in 5 or then
years will have a polymer up to date,and more tools to do Web
applications,Dart Itself is really a killer language,but Its a Dart ,fast,
but goes in the direction that it wants,not where I want to trhow it.

marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
I think google wanted to introduce a better way to do both Mobile and Web
applications,not be atractive and popular,it seems that other teams wants
to be chearleaders them.

Post by Michael Francis
The biggest problem with Angular. Is that the Angular team is just
behind. Dart will be supported with both Angular and Angular Material. As a
huge fan of Dart I do believe Typescript was the correct decision for the
Angular team. Angular has a much bigger audience than just Dart developers.
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 11:10 AM Eduardo Teixeira Dias <

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias
In the last dart summit the message was: Angular 2 is the best choice if
you are a WEB Dart developer, then, in the last Angular 2 event, no mention
of Dart......
Angular 2 developed in TypeScript, not in Dart. Really bad PR for Dart.
No Angular 2 Material for Dart.
No Server side rendering for Angular 2 Dart.
Angular 2 are generating good results in our pilot projects but the PR
problem is big. Trust is needed in order to sell the platform to customers
for big internal projects.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my
interest in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier
to repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new
ones with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how
Dart turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the
Dart language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I
can't risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how the
community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion than
IRC (didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually the
case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no
longer worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and
maybe an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a
shit about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that
we'll have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to
both move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both
of those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
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--
Saudações,
Eduardo Teixeira Dias
------------------------------------------
Tendencies Consultoria Ltda.
Tel: [phone]
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192
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[Marcello Dias]

I have learned a lesson,even though I can not say I wasnÂŽt adviced.
Anders Hejlsberg says something he speeks for Microsoft.
When Marco Cantú says something he speaks for Embarcadero.
Google is a rather different company,every team is free to do what they
want,
there is not a general opinion,nobody speaks for the company.
I mean,In this video,the vast majority of google teams agrees with Anders,
TypeScript was more than enough.
I still donÂŽt think this way.

http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM

Post by Marcello Dias
I followed all the advices and forgot DART for a while,maybe in 5 or then
years will have a polymer up to date,and more tools to do Web
applications,Dart Itself is really a killer language,but Its a Dart ,fast,
but goes in the direction that it wants,not where I want to trhow it.
marcello

Post by Marcello Dias
I think google wanted to introduce a better way to do both Mobile and Web
applications,not be atractive and popular,it seems that other teams wants
to be chearleaders them.

Post by Michael Francis
The biggest problem with Angular. Is that the Angular team is just
behind. Dart will be supported with both Angular and Angular Material. As a
huge fan of Dart I do believe Typescript was the correct decision for the
Angular team. Angular has a much bigger audience than just Dart developers.
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 11:10 AM Eduardo Teixeira Dias <

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias
In the last dart summit the message was: Angular 2 is the best choice
if you are a WEB Dart developer, then, in the last Angular 2 event, no
mention of Dart......
Angular 2 developed in TypeScript, not in Dart. Really bad PR for Dart.
No Angular 2 Material for Dart.
No Server side rendering for Angular 2 Dart.
Angular 2 are generating good results in our pilot projects but the PR
problem is big. Trust is needed in order to sell the platform to customers
for big internal projects.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not an ethical choice for open-source projects.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
The way that Google treats the community has entirely doused my
interest in Dart. At this moment, Typescript is killing it, it's way easier
to repurpose JS apps to TS and retain developers than it is to train new
ones with Dart, and it's a more seamless experience.
Gilad is a really bright guy, and I am really interested to see how
Dart turns out. From a PLT perspective, it's super interesting what the
Dart language is doing, but I can't risk trusting Dart with my stack, I
can't risk hiring developers for a language that doesn't care about me.
Between the lackluster community relations, the downright refusal to
prefer IRC over a proprietary platform like Slack,

What has that to do with the Dart team or with Google. This is how
the community evolved. Some prefer Slack, some prefer IRC.
It's not Googles fault if more people follow the Slack discussion
than IRC (didn't check IRC since a while and don't know if this is actually
the case)

Post by Hayden Jones
and the blatant dismissal of growth strategies, I think Dart is no
longer worth most developers' time. The ECMA standard is a good thing, and
maybe an implementation will be cultivated by a team that actually gives a
shit about FOSS, but until then it's dust in the wind to me.
Thanks Google.

Post by Michael Francis
You all need to hire a community manager.

Post by Benjamin Strauß

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that
we'll have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to
both move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both
of those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.

Is there any plan to continue the DEP meetings?
--
For other discussions, see
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Saudações,
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------------------------------------------
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Tel: [phone]
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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[krupal shah]

So, the whole point is Dart is getting better in stealth mode. I am excited
to see some brand new, revolutionary and breaking changes in Dart.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Cogman
The purpose of the post is just lamenting where dart was and where it went.

It's fine to do that, but it's not very actionable. I can also certainly
point to many things I wish had been done differently earlier in Dart's
history, but absent a time machine, there's not much we can do about it.
What I think is more interesting is figuring out where to go forward to.

Post by Cogman
And it was very apparent that the team size working on dart shrank
significantly

I don't think the team has shrank significantly, though I can definitely
see why it looks that way on the outside.

Post by Cogman
and progress slowed almost to zero.

*Externally visible* progress, yes. Sorry about that.
Internally, we have actually been cranking pretty hard for a while. Our
internal usage is steadily increasing and we've been using that as a good
opportunity to see what kinds of changes we need to make to make those
users *really* happy. I think if we can figure that out and make Dart a
great platform for Googlers, it will also be a great platform for external
users. (Unsurprisingly, many of the things Googler Dart users ask for are
exactly the same stuff you folks ask for.)
But I do realize we've been awfully quiet lately. My hope is that we'll
have more interesting stuff to say relatively soon. We are trying to both
move a lot faster and make Dart a lot better, and it's hard to do both of
those while also carefully writing everything down and communicating it
precisely on all the right public channels.
Especially early in the design process when a lot of ideas get considered
and discarded, when there is lots of disagreement, and things are not
fleshed out, it's really hard to articulate the status of things without
setting expectations. Sometimes even just describing something in text
gives it more gravitas than it actually has.
It would frustrate you if we spent a lot of time describing some idea that
didn't end up panning out (which happens often), and it would burn a bunch
of our time. We *will* do that before too long, obviously. Your feedback
is hugely important! But it'll happen as things start to settle down and we
have a clearer picture of what is and isn't going to work. We're trying to
minimize thrashing and throwaway effort.
For what it's worth, I've never been more excited about the direction of
Dart than I am today. I have really high hopes for Dart 2.0.
Java, Go, Rust. These are all languages that (semi-recently) released

Post by Cogman
with that didn't have broken example, projects, etc advertised on their
front page.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
Definitely - and version 1.0 will be better than everything the

developer community has seen so far :D
1.0 doesn't need to be perfect. What needs to be perfect is ANYTHING
that the language highlights as an awesome feature or library.
If the first thing you see in a new language is some horribly broken
library with mailing lists and stack overflow of unanswered questions.
You can only make a first impression once, and ultimately, that is what
people will use for a long time to determine whether or not they will use
your product.

I will note that Java's initial impression was of a horribly slow
interpreted language for applets that took forever to load and often
crashed. Rust today is a very different language from when they first
announced it. Remember type state?

Post by Cogman
So now you got a bunch of enthusiasts that will never adopt the language,
and a bunch of slow adopters that won't go for it either because nobody is
using it. New languages have to win enthusiasts if they want to be popular.

I totally agree. We are at the left edge of the diffusion of innovation
chart <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations>. We need
to focus on innovators and early adopters, and making a platform that's
exciting for them. After that we get them, we can transition towards a
platform that's safe and non-scary to the majority.
Cheers!
– bob

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by krupal shah
So, the whole point is Dart is getting better in stealth mode. I am
excited to see some brand new, revolutionary and breaking changes in Dart.

Hopefully, yes. Though I'd describe more as "moving too fast to slow down
and write everything down" mode more than "stealth".

It's probably not obvious from the outside, but being open takes a
surprising amount of effort. There are only so many hours in the day, and a
few hours spent typing up, editing, formatting, etc. some meeting notes is
a few hours not spent designing language features, writing tests, fixing
bugs, etc.

That's even harder when what you're talking about in meetings is still
half-baked and relies on lots of cultural short-hand shared between people
on the team. Saying "we talked about covariant overrides for a while" means
now we have to circle back and define what we mean by that. And, then, when
that definition changes, we have to go back and make sure that we tell
everyone our interpretation of that changed too. Or maybe this wasn't even
in an official meeting, maybe it was just a hallway conversation between a
couple of people.

Also, figuring out *how* to communicate openly effectively is also
difficult. There's a whole meta level about deciding between mailing lists,
docs, GitHub issues. Documenting processes, making sure things are
communicated correctly, etc.

It's hugely important work, but we are trying to balance it with also
hugely important work of designing Dart 2.0 itself. As Dart 2.0 gets more
baked and we feel confident that it hangs together, it both gets easier to
talk about it—it's less fuzzy—and it becomes more *useful* to talk about
it. We can have concrete features and concepts to get feedback on.

Cheers!

– bob

[Marcello Dias]

At least for me,I got the impression that the initial plan was developing
every technology that would be in Dart umbrella in the Dart Language itself.
Things like a Dart Node.js alike,Polymer chooshing Dart instead of
JavaScript,something similar to Angular but written in Dart.
They would never say it out loud,but i bet the Dart team itself feels like
they have a knife in their back by other google teams.
It is an insane job to keep Angular.Dart and Poylymer.Dart while both the
language and these tools are under construction.
It is like a dog chasing his own tail,when polymer.dart 1.0 sees the
light,there will be probablya an 1.5.
I agree that the first impression is what generally stays,but JavaScript is
like a former porn actress that now is being treated like
a queen,so those who can, shoud wait and see,but is very dissapointing to
read my 2014 posts and check the reallity in 2016.

https://yakovfain.com/2013/08/02/how-serious-is-google-about-dart/

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by krupal shah
So, the whole point is Dart is getting better in stealth mode. I am
excited to see some brand new, revolutionary and breaking changes in Dart.

Hopefully, yes. Though I'd describe more as "moving too fast to slow down
and write everything down" mode more than "stealth".
It's probably not obvious from the outside, but being open takes a
surprising amount of effort. There are only so many hours in the day, and a
few hours spent typing up, editing, formatting, etc. some meeting notes is
a few hours not spent designing language features, writing tests, fixing
bugs, etc.
That's even harder when what you're talking about in meetings is still
half-baked and relies on lots of cultural short-hand shared between people
on the team. Saying "we talked about covariant overrides for a while" means
now we have to circle back and define what we mean by that. And, then, when
that definition changes, we have to go back and make sure that we tell
everyone our interpretation of that changed too. Or maybe this wasn't even
in an official meeting, maybe it was just a hallway conversation between a
couple of people.
Also, figuring out *how* to communicate openly effectively is also
difficult. There's a whole meta level about deciding between mailing lists,
docs, GitHub issues. Documenting processes, making sure things are
communicated correctly, etc.
It's hugely important work, but we are trying to balance it with also
hugely important work of designing Dart 2.0 itself. As Dart 2.0 gets more
baked and we feel confident that it hangs together, it both gets easier to
talk about it—it's less fuzzy—and it becomes more *useful* to talk about
it. We can have concrete features and concepts to get feedback on.
Cheers!
– bob
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Don Olmstead]

There are practical reasons for everything that has happened with Dart. The
initial push was for a fast VM in the browser and for optimized compiled JS
for when the VM was not present. This focused was changed once the VM being
integrated into Chrome was not an option.

With Dart there are two VMs. Two compilers, DDC and dart2js. There are
libraries for server side, shelf, and client side, Angular2 and Polymer.
There is a build of Chrome with the VM for client side apps. There is a
package manager. There is a code analyzer and linter. There are build
systems. There is async/await. A language specification that is an ECMA
standard. This is all a ton of work. TypeScript is just a superset of JS so
it is really not a fair comparison as it can piggy back on all that was
already there.

In terms of community this mailing list isn't that active as most have
found their way to Slack which is a much more effective way of getting
help. There are a number of die hard Dart enthusiasts hanging out there in
all different time zones that can be asked for help.

I've been around since before M1. I have heard these sorts of conversations
many many times over the years. If you find you like Dart then use it. I
use it all the time and there are spots I don't like but I don't act as
though I'm entitled to have my every concern resolved. Creating a language
and tooling and all these things require compromise. The only way you'll
ever get exactly what you want is to go and design your own language. There
is a DEP process if you fancy yourself a language designer that is the way
to go. If you don't like something about a library or find an issue
everything is on GitHub now and you can easily open a pull request which
fixes the problems you are having.

Contributing is a positive thing to do for the community. Posting to a
forum about anything you feel slighted with over your time with Dart is not
productive and should be actively discouraged.

Post by Marcello Dias
At least for me,I got the impression that the initial plan was developing
every technology that would be in Dart umbrella in the Dart Language itself.
Things like a Dart Node.js alike,Polymer chooshing Dart instead of
JavaScript,something similar to Angular but written in Dart.
They would never say it out loud,but i bet the Dart team itself feels like
they have a knife in their back by other google teams.
It is an insane job to keep Angular.Dart and Poylymer.Dart while both the
language and these tools are under construction.
It is like a dog chasing his own tail,when polymer.dart 1.0 sees the
light,there will be probablya an 1.5.
I agree that the first impression is what generally stays,but JavaScript
is like a former porn actress that now is being treated like
a queen,so those who can, shoud wait and see,but is very dissapointing to
read my 2014 posts and check the reallity in 2016.
https://yakovfain.com/2013/08/02/how-serious-is-google-about-dart/

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by krupal shah
So, the whole point is Dart is getting better in stealth mode. I am
excited to see some brand new, revolutionary and breaking changes in Dart.

Hopefully, yes. Though I'd describe more as "moving too fast to slow down
and write everything down" mode more than "stealth".
It's probably not obvious from the outside, but being open takes a
surprising amount of effort. There are only so many hours in the day, and a
few hours spent typing up, editing, formatting, etc. some meeting notes is
a few hours not spent designing language features, writing tests, fixing
bugs, etc.
That's even harder when what you're talking about in meetings is still
half-baked and relies on lots of cultural short-hand shared between people
on the team. Saying "we talked about covariant overrides for a while" means
now we have to circle back and define what we mean by that. And, then, when
that definition changes, we have to go back and make sure that we tell
everyone our interpretation of that changed too. Or maybe this wasn't even
in an official meeting, maybe it was just a hallway conversation between a
couple of people.
Also, figuring out *how* to communicate openly effectively is also
difficult. There's a whole meta level about deciding between mailing lists,
docs, GitHub issues. Documenting processes, making sure things are
communicated correctly, etc.
It's hugely important work, but we are trying to balance it with also
hugely important work of designing Dart 2.0 itself. As Dart 2.0 gets more
baked and we feel confident that it hangs together, it both gets easier to
talk about it—it's less fuzzy—and it becomes more *useful* to talk about
it. We can have concrete features and concepts to get feedback on.
Cheers!
– bob
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Joel Trottier-Hébert]

Awww yeah, well said. Thanks.

Post by Don Olmstead
There are practical reasons for everything that has happened with Dart.
The initial push was for a fast VM in the browser and for optimized
compiled JS for when the VM was not present. This focused was changed once
the VM being integrated into Chrome was not an option.
With Dart there are two VMs. Two compilers, DDC and dart2js. There are
libraries for server side, shelf, and client side, Angular2 and Polymer.
There is a build of Chrome with the VM for client side apps. There is a
package manager. There is a code analyzer and linter. There are build
systems. There is async/await. A language specification that is an ECMA
standard. This is all a ton of work. TypeScript is just a superset of JS so
it is really not a fair comparison as it can piggy back on all that was
already there.
In terms of community this mailing list isn't that active as most have
found their way to Slack which is a much more effective way of getting
help. There are a number of die hard Dart enthusiasts hanging out there in
all different time zones that can be asked for help.
I've been around since before M1. I have heard these sorts of
conversations many many times over the years. If you find you like Dart
then use it. I use it all the time and there are spots I don't like but I
don't act as though I'm entitled to have my every concern resolved.
Creating a language and tooling and all these things require compromise.
The only way you'll ever get exactly what you want is to go and design your
own language. There is a DEP process if you fancy yourself a language
designer that is the way to go. If you don't like something about a library
or find an issue everything is on GitHub now and you can easily open a pull
request which fixes the problems you are having.
Contributing is a positive thing to do for the community. Posting to a
forum about anything you feel slighted with over your time with Dart is not
productive and should be actively discouraged.
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Marcello Dias <

Post by Marcello Dias
At least for me,I got the impression that the initial plan was developing
every technology that would be in Dart umbrella in the Dart Language itself.
Things like a Dart Node.js alike,Polymer chooshing Dart instead of
JavaScript,something similar to Angular but written in Dart.
They would never say it out loud,but i bet the Dart team itself feels
like they have a knife in their back by other google teams.
It is an insane job to keep Angular.Dart and Poylymer.Dart while both the
language and these tools are under construction.
It is like a dog chasing his own tail,when polymer.dart 1.0 sees the
light,there will be probablya an 1.5.
I agree that the first impression is what generally stays,but JavaScript
is like a former porn actress that now is being treated like
a queen,so those who can, shoud wait and see,but is very dissapointing to
read my 2014 posts and check the reallity in 2016.
https://yakovfain.com/2013/08/02/how-serious-is-google-about-dart/

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by krupal shah
So, the whole point is Dart is getting better in stealth mode. I am
excited to see some brand new, revolutionary and breaking changes in Dart.

Hopefully, yes. Though I'd describe more as "moving too fast to slow
down and write everything down" mode more than "stealth".
It's probably not obvious from the outside, but being open takes a
surprising amount of effort. There are only so many hours in the day, and a
few hours spent typing up, editing, formatting, etc. some meeting notes is
a few hours not spent designing language features, writing tests, fixing
bugs, etc.
That's even harder when what you're talking about in meetings is still
half-baked and relies on lots of cultural short-hand shared between people
on the team. Saying "we talked about covariant overrides for a while" means
now we have to circle back and define what we mean by that. And, then, when
that definition changes, we have to go back and make sure that we tell
everyone our interpretation of that changed too. Or maybe this wasn't even
in an official meeting, maybe it was just a hallway conversation between a
couple of people.
Also, figuring out *how* to communicate openly effectively is also
difficult. There's a whole meta level about deciding between mailing lists,
docs, GitHub issues. Documenting processes, making sure things are
communicated correctly, etc.
It's hugely important work, but we are trying to balance it with also
hugely important work of designing Dart 2.0 itself. As Dart 2.0 gets more
baked and we feel confident that it hangs together, it both gets easier to
talk about it—it's less fuzzy—and it becomes more *useful* to talk
about it. We can have concrete features and concepts to get feedback on.
Cheers!
– bob
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[kc]

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 8:00:59 PM UTC+1, Don Olmstead wrote:

I've been around since before M1. I have heard these sorts of conversations

Post by Don Olmstead
many many times over the years. If you find you like Dart then use it. I
use it all the time and there are spots I don't like but I don't act as
though I'm entitled to have my every concern resolved.

A Dart team member made a similar point on twitter - roughly users
expecting stuff for free.
But Dart isn't like Bob's Wren lang or Elm - both of which are great. It's
a *massive* investment by Google - but patently not enough devs bit for 1.x.

My feedback has always been that Dart didn't focus enough on mobile and
expressiveness. Now it apparently is with Flutter and and Dart 2.0.

And in terms of being future orientated - breaking down the barrier between
web and mobile apps is where the action is.
https://developer.android.com/topic/instant-apps/index.html
https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps/

K.

Creating a language and tooling and all these things require compromise.

Post by Don Olmstead
The only way you'll ever get exactly what you want is to go and design your
own language. There is a DEP process if you fancy yourself a language
designer that is the way to go. If you don't like something about a library
or find an issue everything is on GitHub now and you can easily open a pull
request which fixes the problems you are having.

[krupal shah]

Thanks Bob for your reply. I don't think about others but personally I
would like if Dart no more targets Javascript. I wish to see Dart evolving
as another general-purpose, VM based, more functional and still readable
language for professional developers.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by krupal shah
So, the whole point is Dart is getting better in stealth mode. I am
excited to see some brand new, revolutionary and breaking changes in Dart.

Hopefully, yes. Though I'd describe more as "moving too fast to slow down
and write everything down" mode more than "stealth".
It's probably not obvious from the outside, but being open takes a
surprising amount of effort. There are only so many hours in the day, and a
few hours spent typing up, editing, formatting, etc. some meeting notes is
a few hours not spent designing language features, writing tests, fixing
bugs, etc.
That's even harder when what you're talking about in meetings is still
half-baked and relies on lots of cultural short-hand shared between people
on the team. Saying "we talked about covariant overrides for a while" means
now we have to circle back and define what we mean by that. And, then, when
that definition changes, we have to go back and make sure that we tell
everyone our interpretation of that changed too. Or maybe this wasn't even
in an official meeting, maybe it was just a hallway conversation between a
couple of people.
Also, figuring out *how* to communicate openly effectively is also
difficult. There's a whole meta level about deciding between mailing lists,
docs, GitHub issues. Documenting processes, making sure things are
communicated correctly, etc.
It's hugely important work, but we are trying to balance it with also
hugely important work of designing Dart 2.0 itself. As Dart 2.0 gets more
baked and we feel confident that it hangs together, it both gets easier to
talk about it—it's less fuzzy—and it becomes more *useful* to talk about
it. We can have concrete features and concepts to get feedback on.
Cheers!
– bob

[kc]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
I totally agree. We are at the left edge of the diffusion of innovation
chart <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations>. We need
to focus on innovators and early adopters, and making a platform that's
exciting for them. After that we get them, we can transition towards a
platform that's safe and non-scary to the majority.

Re early adopters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm

Dart needs to bmx pump to get across it. Flutter/mobile and a more
expressive language could do it. Which would give momentum to
web/server/iot.

Also there's been a lot of debate re Swift and dynamism:
http://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/05/21/dynamic-swift-2/

Swift - despite it's many virtues - isn't really Objective C without the
C. Dart actually is - so there's a gap in the market imo.

K.

[Marcello Dias]

In fact If knew things I know by know I would probably not even openned
this thread.
First,Google still beleaveas in Dart,Not only that,theyÂŽre making it a
general purpose language,
see Dartino and Flutter as an example.
Second,If they beleave that WebAssembly has a potential to kill the VMÂŽs,
it would be a waste of time to keep the initial goal.
Third,Polymer.Dart is not dead,even though I still think its going too
slow,but I have to recognize that Polymer itself
is under construction.
Every developer has its own needs,I dont think that Angular,Reactjs are
suitable for ERP/CRM development.
Unfortunatelly Dart+Polymer ,for me, is not as productive as EXTJS for
example(Although EXTJS has not mixins).
Dart is miles ahead in therms of architecture of anything out there,when I
have time IÂŽll try to figure out how
to use WebStorm,Polymer designer and everything else to be as productive as
Sencha architecht.

Post by Cogman
Dart is about as dead as GWT.
In other words, still used, but not generally.
I think ultimately, there was never enough community backing to make dart
"the next big thing". Even typescript, which was (IMO) much more
successful than Dart, is struggling to attract JS developers.
There are a few things that went wrong with dart.
First off, I don't think dart matured enough before the big public debut
and 1.0ification. It think it was racing to compete with typescript and in
the process released a somewhat buggy product.
I think that Dart development very noticeably slowed down externally. At
one point, dart was all about "Look at just how fast we are, and how fast
we are getting". Now it is sort of a sideline thing.
I think that big name dart things like "Angular Dart" finished in horrible
positions. No joke, angular dart was broken for almost a full year because
almost all of the angular dart devs moved from angular dart to angular 2.0.
That sort of thing is simply unforgivable. You can't leave a project's
last release horribly broken (some method was deprecated and removed
without the replacement and literally the only solution was going backwards
a version).
And I think the fact that dart was a second class citizen in Angular 2.0
was really sort of a death blow. It painted the picture that "not even
google internally believes in dart enough to make it a first class citizen
in one of their most popular projects". I mean, they started in pure
javascript, then AtScript (a subset of Typescript) and then just
TypeScript. Dart had too high a barrier to be used as the foundation
language.
It also just does not help that the standard library saw a whole bunch of
flux for a 1.0 release. Remember Isolates? The next big thing in
concurrent programming? Yeah...
Now dart is being put in a weird place of "Hey you can run it both server
and client side. neat".
I just feel like when it was most important, Dart really fumbled the
community relations ball. I've not been following it for a while now, and
a quick browse through the docs really do look a lot better than they used
to be. But I feel like it was just too little too late.
Here's to hoping that web assembly saves us from Javascript.

Post by Marcello Dias
Someone just replied in another thread that polymer.dart is far from
being dead.
In fact the new version was only not realeased due to a really difficult
to find Bug
that is generating an error only in I.E.
https://github.com/dart-lang/polymer-dart/issues/682
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[Ray King]

While not being a contributor to this debate, each day the digest of this
thread is studied intensely and appreciated for the passion and alternative
viewpoints.

The past decades on the language and technology fronts we have seen the old
become new, and the temporary become the defacto standard. Those that have
seen a few cycles in this industry would just smile and remark; there is
nothing new here.

This reply to the question "Does Dart Still Deserve it Name?" it is from
the above perspective, where the answer is:

A resounding "Yes."

Before jumping into the "why" of the answer, it should be stated that many
of aberrations in the flight path of Dart have been just that. Random
aberrations caused by a turbulent environment where Features and Frameworks
quickly appear and subconsciously take on that silver bullet status. So
there is little value in rehashing old video and presentations when certain
directions where the Soupe du Jour.

The environment has changed, The Web, then Devices, now IoT and next we
will be back to desktop apps, take for example Electron, which we see more
of each day. The one thing that has remained constant during all of this
uncertainty and change over the past decades is the holy grail of developer
productivity.

It is amazing to observe how little the is the target of the latest
framework or language. There is absolute lust over community support and
winning over the hearts and minds of the majority of developers. There
appears to be some short circuit thinking, where "Hot Feature" = "More
Developers." therefore success.

That calculation just does not hold water.

A possible alternative would be the use of a language in solving bigger and
more interesting problems, the more maturity and innovation that fosters.
The flip side of that is variation, today across the Dart developer
community there is a broad range of opinions. There are some that lobby and
building tools for stricter typing, others are heading the other way. The
range of topics and thought on priorities vary.

The natural consequences of this are regular changes and new approaches,
arising from new learning. Isolates are an excellent example that has made
concurrency better. However, they have a need to mature, initially doing
the Isolate Dance with the send are receive ports appeared a small price to
pay. Experience has shown that is not the case, and two excellent
solutions have emerged. Isolate Streams in the stream channel Package and
the Isolate package, which has registration and load balance sorted. The
upshot here is that our concurrent code just works on phones, servers, and
browser via web workers. What a great abstraction.

The growth learnings are also observable in Angular and Polymer. The
environment with frameworks was a mess at the time of their release. Let us
not mention shadow dom and web components and what the browser teams were
going to do. The result was a degree of dancing around to work out what was
the going to happen.

The key point is that this was all transparent and self-evident from the
discuss groups. Still people rushed to build to huge apps on Angular and
only then did they start to feel the problems that were being openly
discussed by many others.

The flutter team has a banner on their site saying that this is an early
stage open source project and that feedback is welcome. This little but
very strategically place banner, reaches to the heart of the matter.

The pyramid of software engineering skills is near symmetrical to the type
of projects out there. There's a wide base of applications that just dives
into a DB and renders the users request and presents it in a digestible
format. Further up the pyramid these applications become larger and have
more users. Approaching mid center we see highly integrated system that can
carry out complex processing and demonstrate some smarts around inferencing
on their data and their state.

Further, still up the pyramid, we start to see a few probabilistic/ML type
applications, frameworks, and languages that tomorrow will provide
productivity gains to applications downstream.

Over reaching and adopting those technologies too early people find
themselves the world of pain, especially when they do not have the skills,
time or the situation does not allow them to contribute to solving those
early live cycle issues.

Dart is working towards becoming a productive general purpose language; it
achieves this growth by iterating and learning. The probability of a Dart
hitting a given region is p=1/r. The probability of missing is q=1-p.

Given (r) is in constant motion which is characteristic of software
engineering industry, Dart has delivered. A toolchain that second to none.
A type system that is optional that allows for the gradual adoption of
type, while permitting the avoidance of Type in situations where it would
result in a ton of boilerplate code.

Mixins that offer a real alternative to one size fits all inheritance.
Named constructed and function which allows for the avoidance of dependency
injection. After all, friends do not let friends to inject. Underpinning
this is an async and concurrency solution that delivers, complete
asynchronous operations can be carried out with have to resort to some
final synchrony operation that bottlenecks. Combined with SIMD, a decent
sized list can be "reduced" in memory without the whole pig through a
python issue.

Not to paint Dart as the perfect language because it is not. There are
still heaps of challenges, all of which can solve today by anyone using the
core language and the package system. Some legacy artifacts are
head-scratching yet are not barriers to productivity.

Bottom line Dart today in 2016, is not common person's language, the door
is open to contribution, and there is a published standard but be clear
there is no massive bazaar of libraries and pieces that can integrate
together to build something that looks like a spaceship.

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a clean
VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word that
he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today than
it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know have
time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0 porting,and
the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and maybe
in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

[Jan Mostert]

I've personally used JS, TypeScript, GWT, KotlinJS, ScalaJS; none of them
are great, none of them come close to what Dart currently offers on the Web.
The fact that JS developers think JavaScript is a great language maybe
indicates that Dart is not made for them, but rather for the side that
thinks JavaScript is not a great language to work in.

Post by Ray King
While not being a contributor to this debate, each day the digest of this
thread is studied intensely and appreciated for the passion and alternative
viewpoints.
The past decades on the language and technology fronts we have seen the
old become new, and the temporary become the defacto standard. Those that
have seen a few cycles in this industry would just smile and remark; there
is nothing new here.
This reply to the question "Does Dart Still Deserve it Name?" it is from
A resounding "Yes."
Before jumping into the "why" of the answer, it should be stated that many
of aberrations in the flight path of Dart have been just that. Random
aberrations caused by a turbulent environment where Features and Frameworks
quickly appear and subconsciously take on that silver bullet status. So
there is little value in rehashing old video and presentations when certain
directions where the Soupe du Jour.
The environment has changed, The Web, then Devices, now IoT and next we
will be back to desktop apps, take for example Electron, which we see more
of each day. The one thing that has remained constant during all of this
uncertainty and change over the past decades is the holy grail of developer
productivity.
It is amazing to observe how little the is the target of the latest
framework or language. There is absolute lust over community support and
winning over the hearts and minds of the majority of developers. There
appears to be some short circuit thinking, where "Hot Feature" = "More
Developers." therefore success.
That calculation just does not hold water.
A possible alternative would be the use of a language in solving bigger
and more interesting problems, the more maturity and innovation that
fosters. The flip side of that is variation, today across the Dart
developer community there is a broad range of opinions. There are some that
lobby and building tools for stricter typing, others are heading the other
way. The range of topics and thought on priorities vary.
The natural consequences of this are regular changes and new approaches,
arising from new learning. Isolates are an excellent example that has made
concurrency better. However, they have a need to mature, initially doing
the Isolate Dance with the send are receive ports appeared a small price to
pay. Experience has shown that is not the case, and two excellent
solutions have emerged. Isolate Streams in the stream channel Package and
the Isolate package, which has registration and load balance sorted. The
upshot here is that our concurrent code just works on phones, servers, and
browser via web workers. What a great abstraction.
The growth learnings are also observable in Angular and Polymer. The
environment with frameworks was a mess at the time of their release. Let us
not mention shadow dom and web components and what the browser teams were
going to do. The result was a degree of dancing around to work out what was
the going to happen.
The key point is that this was all transparent and self-evident from the
discuss groups. Still people rushed to build to huge apps on Angular and
only then did they start to feel the problems that were being openly
discussed by many others.
The flutter team has a banner on their site saying that this is an early
stage open source project and that feedback is welcome. This little but
very strategically place banner, reaches to the heart of the matter.
The pyramid of software engineering skills is near symmetrical to the type
of projects out there. There's a wide base of applications that just dives
into a DB and renders the users request and presents it in a digestible
format. Further up the pyramid these applications become larger and have
more users. Approaching mid center we see highly integrated system that can
carry out complex processing and demonstrate some smarts around inferencing
on their data and their state.
Further, still up the pyramid, we start to see a few probabilistic/ML type
applications, frameworks, and languages that tomorrow will provide
productivity gains to applications downstream.
Over reaching and adopting those technologies too early people find
themselves the world of pain, especially when they do not have the skills,
time or the situation does not allow them to contribute to solving those
early live cycle issues.
Dart is working towards becoming a productive general purpose language; it
achieves this growth by iterating and learning. The probability of a Dart
hitting a given region is p=1/r. The probability of missing is q=1-p.
Given (r) is in constant motion which is characteristic of software
engineering industry, Dart has delivered. A toolchain that second to none.
A type system that is optional that allows for the gradual adoption of
type, while permitting the avoidance of Type in situations where it would
result in a ton of boilerplate code.
Mixins that offer a real alternative to one size fits all inheritance.
Named constructed and function which allows for the avoidance of dependency
injection. After all, friends do not let friends to inject. Underpinning
this is an async and concurrency solution that delivers, complete
asynchronous operations can be carried out with have to resort to some
final synchrony operation that bottlenecks. Combined with SIMD, a decent
sized list can be "reduced" in memory without the whole pig through a
python issue.
Not to paint Dart as the perfect language because it is not. There are
still heaps of challenges, all of which can solve today by anyone using the
core language and the package system. Some legacy artifacts are
head-scratching yet are not barriers to productivity.
Bottom line Dart today in 2016, is not common person's language, the door
is open to contribution, and there is a published standard but be clear
there is no massive bazaar of libraries and pieces that can integrate
together to build something that looks like a spaceship.

Post by Marcello Dias
Why DART was named DART?
At least I think because it was a promise of clean code,running in a
clean VM.
See this in Youtube
http://youtu.be/5AqbCQuK0gM
Now I see myself clapping every Lars speech and
Larry Page or Sergey Brin clapping every Anders
Speech.
Believe me or not,I donÂŽt thing that Anders itself believed in a word
that he said.
I remember having some talkings in the NET with people that have chosen
TypeScript over DART.
Their arguments:You can have TypeScript and JavaScript Libraries in the
same project,all browses VMS run javaScript.
My arguments:Performance is the most important thing in Internet where
resources are lower and more expensive than Desktop Applications.
I Can use Dart both in the Client and in the Server.
JavaScript code is garbage and should never had been written,it was
written in 20 days,and it is really bad for what could have been done 20
years ago also.
It is like having a religious ex- serial killer living in your house.
The other browsers will have to accept DART or become turtles.
I donÂŽt mind having two browsers(For some years),one to run stupid old
javascript code,and one to run corporate code.
But Google said We will never have a DART VM,that's really disappointing.
At first i THOUGHT thatÂŽs pure marketing.
But even for the market point of view,that was really bad,I think it is
affecting the language acceptance and users Growth.
What IÂŽm traying to say is:Its harder to Sell Dart to your Boss today
than it was in 2014.
“All men should keep their word, kings most of all. “
I think that's from Game of Thrones
Google is not acting as a King, at least in my opinion.
In fact I donÂŽt produce Code right now,I left my job as a CIO ,I know
have time to code again,Just a Starter with DART.
But I and I think many many people thought that in 2016 we would have a
Dart VM in Chrome.
Polymer would be written in DART(Now we donÂŽt still have a 1.0
porting,and the project seems to me abandoned).
For me, Google is the biggest advertiser of TypeScript now.
If I go with TypeScript iÂŽll probably have to study nodejs also, and
maybe in some years IÂŽwill
be regretful of not have chosen DART.
Up to now my tendency is invest in DART+Polymer Vanilla, since I think
Polymer.DART is a
dead project,I DonÂŽt care about Angular.DART but it is also seems going
nowhere.
If you look articles and videos in Youtube,Dart has never attracted less
attention than today.many people consider it as a dead project,I only think
DART does not deserve this name anymore,since it will never run in its own
VM.
At least Dartium will still be maintened?
Thanks,
Marcello

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[Marcello Dias]

To make things more clear.
Lets see the case of Seth Ladd.
I saw him as the big advertiser of DART,the Guy who had the job of telling
the whole word that Dart was the best thing since god invited water.
Now it seems he dedicates his time to flutter(although flutter can promote
Dart indirectly).
I donÂŽt see nobody doing what he used to do.
https://sethladd.com/
See when he talks about flutter he uses present.
When he talks about Dart he uses "helped",so I think he is no more a Dart
resource.
So,it might be a misunderstanding that Google Dart people are
decreasing,but we are directed to think this way.

[Marcello Dias]

If someone asks me about Dart I would probably say.
I t ahs the potential of being the most productive tool for creating RIA
applications,
and also its a multi purpose language,where you can write your application
Full Stack(Both the
client and the server),that you can write your mobile apps(flutter),IOT
,ans many more.
So you probably have to know just one language.
Unfortunatelly all it competitors are already in a more productive stage.
The fact that Dart needs Polymer or Angular is really bad,because theyÂŽre
not written in DART,
they donÂŽt grow togheter ,like what happens in ReactJS for instance.
Why canÂŽt the World be perfect?

Post by Marcello Dias
To make things more clear.
Lets see the case of Seth Ladd.
I saw him as the big advertiser of DART,the Guy who had the job of telling
the whole word that Dart was the best thing since god invited water.
Now it seems he dedicates his time to flutter(although flutter can promote
Dart indirectly).
I donÂŽt see nobody doing what he used to do.
https://sethladd.com/
See when he talks about flutter he uses present.
When he talks about Dart he uses "helped",so I think he is no more a Dart
resource.
So,it might be a misunderstanding that Google Dart people are
decreasing,but we are directed to think this way.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[Marcello Dias]

Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North Korea,where we
still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come and
close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see that it
was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can always
choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in Dart,even
though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste my time
in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute to
everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to think
in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.

Regards,
Marcello

[Alain Ekambi]

Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when you can
use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North Korea,where
we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come and
close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see that it
was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can always
choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in Dart,even
though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste my
time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute to
everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to think
in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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--
Alain Ekambi

Co-Founder

Ahomé Innovation Technologies

http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>

[Joel Trottier-Hébert]

Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when you can
use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North Korea,where
we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come and
close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see that it
was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can always
choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste my
time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute to
everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to think
in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Misc" group.
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[Alain Ekambi]

Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are just
looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when you can
use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North Korea,where
we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come and
close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see that it
was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste my
time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute to
everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
Alain Ekambi

Co-Founder

Ahomé Innovation Technologies

http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>

[Kévin Platel]

I know a lot of people which aren't realy happy to do Java, mostly because
it's a really verbose language which doesn't really fit in the web way of
thinking.
Some others functionnality which are great aren't necessarily good for
everyone.

Maybe the relative success of GWT is a proof that people don't want to do
java for the web, and in the marketing point of view java on the web ==
security issue, even if it's not the same technology =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are just
looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when you
can use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North
Korea,where we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come
and close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see that
it was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste my
time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute to
everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo

[Alain Ekambi]

Of course Java is not perfect. You will always have people that are not
happy with it.
Java still rocks the enterprise world though and that wont change anytime
soon.
And there are ways to go around the verbosity on Java

It will take Dart years to hav 1/10 of the tools available in the Java
ecosystem.
And still Dart wont have the community that goes with it.

Once the Dart VM did nt not made it into Chrome the project was dead.

GWT was solving anything Dart wanted to solved.
So when Dart came out. My question was Why ?

Seriously improving GWT would have been the best option.

Post by Kévin Platel
I know a lot of people which aren't realy happy to do Java, mostly because
it's a really verbose language which doesn't really fit in the web way of
thinking.
Some others functionnality which are great aren't necessarily good for
everyone.
Maybe the relative success of GWT is a proof that people don't want to do
java for the web, and in the marketing point of view java on the web ==
security issue, even if it's not the same technology =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are just
looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when you
can use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North
Korea,where we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come
and close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see that
it was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste my
time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute to
everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
Alain Ekambi

Co-Founder

Ahomé Innovation Technologies

http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>

[Kévin Platel]

It's your vision =)

Personnaly if Google have announced a new version of GWT I don't think I
would have put that much attention.
But I was doing a lot of JS when I heard of Dart I saw the language as a
very good alternative and stop my frustration with JS.

So improving GWT would have been a good solution for GWT developer and a
few others Java developers but I think that Dart attract more people
because it's not base on Java and a bit closer to JS than Java x)
Remember that one of the aims of Dart was to create a language easy to
learn for Java AND Javascript dev

Kévin

Post by Alain Ekambi
Of course Java is not perfect. You will always have people that are not
happy with it.
Java still rocks the enterprise world though and that wont change anytime
soon.
And there are ways to go around the verbosity on Java
It will take Dart years to hav 1/10 of the tools available in the Java
ecosystem.
And still Dart wont have the community that goes with it.
Once the Dart VM did nt not made it into Chrome the project was dead.
GWT was solving anything Dart wanted to solved.
So when Dart came out. My question was Why ?
Seriously improving GWT would have been the best option.

Post by Kévin Platel
I know a lot of people which aren't realy happy to do Java, mostly
because it's a really verbose language which doesn't really fit in the web
way of thinking.
Some others functionnality which are great aren't necessarily good for
everyone.
Maybe the relative success of GWT is a proof that people don't want to do
java for the web, and in the marketing point of view java on the web ==
security issue, even if it's not the same technology =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are just
looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when you
can use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North
Korea,where we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come
and close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see that
it was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste
my time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute
to everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo

[Alain Ekambi]

Dart attracts more people ? I would love to believe that.
We all know that the reality is different.

With all the respect due to the people that create it(Its indeed a great
piece of tech) Dart is falling to catch traction.

TypeScript is way better/easier to use than Dart.

And if I want to share code between client and server I wont use Dart
either. Because guess what ?

There are simply better alternatives on the server (C#, Java)

I played with Dart and never saw what this will bring to my company.
Specially with a 100% java back end.

Then again it s my own opinion :)

Post by Kévin Platel
It's your vision =)
Personnaly if Google have announced a new version of GWT I don't think I
would have put that much attention.
But I was doing a lot of JS when I heard of Dart I saw the language as a
very good alternative and stop my frustration with JS.
So improving GWT would have been a good solution for GWT developer and a
few others Java developers but I think that Dart attract more people
because it's not base on Java and a bit closer to JS than Java x)
Remember that one of the aims of Dart was to create a language easy to
learn for Java AND Javascript dev
Kévin

Post by Alain Ekambi
Of course Java is not perfect. You will always have people that are not
happy with it.
Java still rocks the enterprise world though and that wont change anytime
soon.
And there are ways to go around the verbosity on Java
It will take Dart years to hav 1/10 of the tools available in the Java
ecosystem.
And still Dart wont have the community that goes with it.
Once the Dart VM did nt not made it into Chrome the project was dead.
GWT was solving anything Dart wanted to solved.
So when Dart came out. My question was Why ?
Seriously improving GWT would have been the best option.

Post by Kévin Platel
I know a lot of people which aren't realy happy to do Java, mostly
because it's a really verbose language which doesn't really fit in the web
way of thinking.
Some others functionnality which are great aren't necessarily good for
everyone.
Maybe the relative success of GWT is a proof that people don't want to
do java for the web, and in the marketing point of view java on the web ==
security issue, even if it's not the same technology =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are
just looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when you
can use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North
Korea,where we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator come
and close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see
that it was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste
my time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute
to everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[Kévin Platel]

In my opinion (I don't have the figure), Dart is more attractive than GWT,
I know that Dart don't attract as much as TS.

But for having wrote a consequent project enterly in Dart (server/client)
I do see the advantage for news project which start with Dart.
But I agree that In your case with a large Java back-end maybe GWT is more
attractive.

As always every thing can be good, depend of the use case =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Dart attracts more people ? I would love to believe that.
We all know that the reality is different.
With all the respect due to the people that create it(Its indeed a great
piece of tech) Dart is falling to catch traction.
TypeScript is way better/easier to use than Dart.
And if I want to share code between client and server I wont use Dart
either. Because guess what ?
There are simply better alternatives on the server (C#, Java)
I played with Dart and never saw what this will bring to my company.
Specially with a 100% java back end.
Then again it s my own opinion :)

Post by Kévin Platel
It's your vision =)
Personnaly if Google have announced a new version of GWT I don't think I
would have put that much attention.
But I was doing a lot of JS when I heard of Dart I saw the language as a
very good alternative and stop my frustration with JS.
So improving GWT would have been a good solution for GWT developer and a
few others Java developers but I think that Dart attract more people
because it's not base on Java and a bit closer to JS than Java x)
Remember that one of the aims of Dart was to create a language easy to
learn for Java AND Javascript dev
Kévin

Post by Alain Ekambi
Of course Java is not perfect. You will always have people that are not
happy with it.
Java still rocks the enterprise world though and that wont change
anytime soon.
And there are ways to go around the verbosity on Java
It will take Dart years to hav 1/10 of the tools available in the Java
ecosystem.
And still Dart wont have the community that goes with it.
Once the Dart VM did nt not made it into Chrome the project was dead.
GWT was solving anything Dart wanted to solved.
So when Dart came out. My question was Why ?
Seriously improving GWT would have been the best option.

Post by Kévin Platel
I know a lot of people which aren't realy happy to do Java, mostly
because it's a really verbose language which doesn't really fit in the web
way of thinking.
Some others functionnality which are great aren't necessarily good for
everyone.
Maybe the relative success of GWT is a proof that people don't want to
do java for the web, and in the marketing point of view java on the web ==
security issue, even if it's not the same technology =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are
just looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when
you can use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North
Korea,where we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator
come and close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see
that it was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste
my time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute
to everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see
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[Matthew Butler]

Alain, the issue you will continue to have with Dart is you report your
opinion as fact.

Post by Alain Ekambi
Dart attracts more people ? I would love to believe that.
We all know that the reality is different.
With all the respect due to the people that create it(Its indeed a great
piece of tech) Dart is falling to catch traction.

Google et al are aware that Dart isn't catching on as they had initially
hope. There are a number of reasons for it but as a result the Dart team
hasn't continued the same course either. As indicated by Bob and others,
they are continuing to evolve the language and the associated tools. This
has been very much a long work in progress since the decision to no longer
push for the VM in Chrome. In many ways, Dart is in a tech-preview state
again while they work on things such as the Dev Compiler, and the host of
other projects.

Experimentation behind the scenes with different additions to the VM and
other components for things like Configurable imports are too premature to
advertise as available especially as they will most likely change
significantly prior to finalization.

Post by Alain Ekambi
TypeScript is way better/easier to use than Dart.

Opinion. Typescript doesn't save you from many of the gotchas inherit to
Javascript. It adds typing but doesn't remove all the issues.
Typescript doesn't enable an "edit/refresh" development flow as Dartium
does.
Typescript doesn't have a "blessed" package manager.
While less vital as when Dart first emerged, Typescript doesn't cover
polyfills between browser differences.

Post by Alain Ekambi
And if I want to share code between client and server I wont use Dart
either. Because guess what ?
There are simply better alternatives on the server (C#, Java)

Neither of which are well suited for sharing code between client and
server. If you choose not to share front and backend code that's fine, but
you can't say dart fails in doing this just because there are better server
languages.
ASM is far faster and arguably more flexible on the server, but you don't
see many people choosing that for the serve side.
What's "better" on the server (or client for that matter) is very much need
dependent.

Post by Alain Ekambi
I played with Dart and never saw what this will bring to my company.
Specially with a 100% java back end.
Then again it s my own opinion :)

And if Dart doesn't fit your use-case then don't use it. Dart isn't looking
to be the "one true language". Neither are most any languages out there.
Now with Dart targeting client side, Server side, embedded devices and
Native Android/iOS apps, Dart is really becoming a great option for start
ups who would like develop a product beyond a simple web-app. As the
company grows and hires more they will no doubt begin to expand their
languages to Java, Swift/ObjectiveC, C, and other choices as their needs
dictate and they want more idiomatic apps of the platform they run on. But
starting with a small team Dart enables a quick jump into all areas they
may want to work.

Remember, Dart, and all other languages are a tool in your toolbox of
knowledge. While it might be possible to drive a screw in with a hammer,
not all situations call for a hammer. Dart can be used server side, client
side, embedded and native mobile. It can replace bash scripts and run as a
web server. When it's appropriate to do so, is a call you and your team
need to make. Sometimes you need a Sherman tank heavyweight (like Java).
Sometimes a Dart will get the job done ;)

Matt

Post by Alain Ekambi

Post by Kévin Platel
It's your vision =)
Personnaly if Google have announced a new version of GWT I don't think I
would have put that much attention.
But I was doing a lot of JS when I heard of Dart I saw the language as a
very good alternative and stop my frustration with JS.
So improving GWT would have been a good solution for GWT developer and a
few others Java developers but I think that Dart attract more people
because it's not base on Java and a bit closer to JS than Java x)
Remember that one of the aims of Dart was to create a language easy to
learn for Java AND Javascript dev
Kévin

Post by Alain Ekambi
Of course Java is not perfect. You will always have people that are not
happy with it.
Java still rocks the enterprise world though and that wont change
anytime soon.
And there are ways to go around the verbosity on Java
It will take Dart years to hav 1/10 of the tools available in the Java
ecosystem.
And still Dart wont have the community that goes with it.
Once the Dart VM did nt not made it into Chrome the project was dead.
GWT was solving anything Dart wanted to solved.
So when Dart came out. My question was Why ?
Seriously improving GWT would have been the best option.

Post by Kévin Platel
I know a lot of people which aren't realy happy to do Java, mostly
because it's a really verbose language which doesn't really fit in the web
way of thinking.
Some others functionnality which are great aren't necessarily good for
everyone.
Maybe the relative success of GWT is a proof that people don't want to
do java for the web, and in the marketing point of view java on the web ==
security issue, even if it's not the same technology =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are
just looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when
you can use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North
Korea,where we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator
come and close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see
that it was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste
my time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute
to everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Alain Ekambi
Dart attracts more people ? I would love to believe that.
We all know that the reality is different.
With all the respect due to the people that create it(Its indeed a great
piece of tech) Dart is falling to catch traction.
TypeScript is way better/easier to use than Dart.

Doesn't look like it to me. I follow Angular2 closely on StackOverflow,
Gitter and GitHub issues and at least in Gitter and StackOverflow a huge
amount (up to 50%) of discussions are about webpack and systemjs and how to
get stuff set up. angular-cli made it much easier but before that lots of
people were struggling to get a simple project set up.
Especially in Gitter it's quite annoying because most discussions have
nothing to do with Angular, only with TS tools.

I created lots of Plunkers in TS to reproduce Angular stuff.
TypeScript has lots of weird pitfalls, like interfaces not available at
runtime, classes not being hoisted, `this` not referring to the class
instance if you forget to use =>, no checked mode to catch type errors at
runtime,
In what order need which polyfills be loaded to work in this or that browser
There are tons of basic things people struggle with, with the language and
the tools, and error messages are seldom helpful.
I didn't see any advantage in TS except that JS libs are easier to use and
that's no surprise because TS *is* JS.


The advantage of TypeScript is that it is less scary for people that come
from JS.

Post by Alain Ekambi
And if I want to share code between client and server I wont use Dart
either. Because guess what ?
There are simply better alternatives on the server (C#, Java)
I played with Dart and never saw what this will bring to my company.
Specially with a 100% java back end.
Then again it s my own opinion :)

Post by Kévin Platel
It's your vision =)
Personnaly if Google have announced a new version of GWT I don't think I
would have put that much attention.
But I was doing a lot of JS when I heard of Dart I saw the language as a
very good alternative and stop my frustration with JS.
So improving GWT would have been a good solution for GWT developer and a
few others Java developers but I think that Dart attract more people
because it's not base on Java and a bit closer to JS than Java x)
Remember that one of the aims of Dart was to create a language easy to
learn for Java AND Javascript dev
Kévin

Post by Alain Ekambi
Of course Java is not perfect. You will always have people that are not
happy with it.
Java still rocks the enterprise world though and that wont change
anytime soon.
And there are ways to go around the verbosity on Java
It will take Dart years to hav 1/10 of the tools available in the Java
ecosystem.
And still Dart wont have the community that goes with it.
Once the Dart VM did nt not made it into Chrome the project was dead.
GWT was solving anything Dart wanted to solved.
So when Dart came out. My question was Why ?
Seriously improving GWT would have been the best option.

Post by Kévin Platel
I know a lot of people which aren't realy happy to do Java, mostly
because it's a really verbose language which doesn't really fit in the web
way of thinking.
Some others functionnality which are great aren't necessarily good for
everyone.
Maybe the relative success of GWT is a proof that people don't want to
do java for the web, and in the marketing point of view java on the web ==
security issue, even if it's not the same technology =)

Post by Alain Ekambi
Yeah and why not ? Java is a proven platform.
Tons of free available tools.
No need to reeinvent the wheel and reimplement everything.
Unless of course you are Google and have tons on engineers that are
just looking to create things because they can

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
Because you might not want to be tied to Java or the JVM?

Post by Alain Ekambi
Which brings me back to my original question why create Dart when
you can use/improve GWT ?

Post by Marcello Dias
Fortunately there are still forums not being hosted in North
Korea,where we still can talk to other
People about our doubts,and concerns,before some small dictator
come and close because of it,or closed
before of that.Like they do in the Medium age ruled Stack Overflow.
Just by reading all the messages in this thread, someone can see
that it was a really a productive one.
And of course not all thread area obrigatory for everybody,You can
always choose the ones you would like to read,
and join,like they do with TV Channels,no need to get tired.
Up to know,IÂŽm only discouraged with how many jobs I can find in
Dart,even though it is still ,at least for me,the best
design language I could find ,IÂŽm not the kind of person that waste
my time in order to denigrate a language that I donÂŽt
want to use.
Unfortunatelly I donÂŽt have time or maybe even talent to contribute
to everything I would like to be implemented, that is why I did not choose
a project ruled by Jhon Doe,So when Google promisses or drive us to
think in a way,I would at least like to know whatÂŽs went wrong,why
they change their directions.
And thanks God there is not only Stack Overflow in the World.
Regards,
Marcello
--
For other discussions, see
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
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For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo
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Alain Ekambi
Co-Founder
Ahomé Innovation Technologies
http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>
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For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo
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For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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Alain Ekambi
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Ahomé Innovation Technologies
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[Marcello]

Writing,both the client,the server in just one language,specially if its
not a verbose one.
For me it is a big advantage.Specially if you hire people.

[Don Olmstead]

If you like GWT and want it improved goto https://github.com/gwtproject/gwt
and open a pull request. Again this is not productive. Use what it is you
want to use. If GWT fit Google's use case then they wouldn't be migrating
GWT apps to Dart. Their developers have made a choice to do that.

Post by Marcello
Writing,both the client,the server in just one language,specially if its
not a verbose one.
For me it is a big advantage.Specially if you hire people.
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