[dart-misc] Fuchsia

[kc]

Intriguing:

https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977

I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile hardware
with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies Android and
Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's to
ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.

Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.

K.

[Filipe Morgado]

I've seen it in the commits too.
I thought it was an IoT-focused OS.

Post by kc
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.

Makes sense.

[tatumizer-v0.2]

"On the other hand, Magenta targets modern phones and modern personal
computers with fast processors, non-trivial amounts of ram with arbitrary
peripherals doing open ended computation" (link)
<https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/magenta/blob/master/docs/mg_and_lk.md>

It might be not enough to guess what Fuchsia is, but at least we now know
what Fuchsia is NOT: it's not something that unifies Android and Chrome OS.
And it's not something that specifically targets IoT. My conjecture: it's a
monumental effort of extraordinary complexity, probably surpasses
everything we ever saw or even imagined before. Less sure, but I think it
will push golang as primary language somehow (*). Dart will be there, too,
of course, among other things big and small, but with no special role.

Sorry for pure speculation (for the lack of reliable data) Feel free to
deny.

(*) beatings will continue until morale improves.



.

[kc]

Some speculation...

Google has two operating systems - Android and Chrome OS.
Both are Linux based with the Linux security/permissions architecture -
process/files.
Android has a further security/permissions architecture embedded in the in
the Dalvik/ART runtime.
Chrome OS is based on the Web security model.
Google has created a unified design language - Material Design.
Android and Chrome OS/Web were retrofitted with the Material Design ui
language.
Flutter is designed from the ground up with Material Design in mind.
Flutter went with the Dart VM - and can be packaged as an apk on Android
(and also iOS .ipa).
On Chromebooks things get a bit too inception-esque. Flutter/Dart running
in an Android apk/runtime on ChromeOS.
Fuchsia OS is thus a replacement for Chrome OS - where the UI is Material
Design - and Flutter/DartVM are first class 'native'.
The Fuchsia security/permission architecture is object capability (ocap) -
to get beyond the Linux/Android/Web models.
The Fuchsia OS kernel is LK based and wrapped in an ocap layer - Magenta.
Fuchsia will initially target mobile devices bigger than phones -
tablets/2in1's/Ultrabooks - Pixel C and Chromebooks. (*)
Flutter apps can thus target Android, iOS and Fuchsia.

(*) Everything is mobile.
http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2015/12/15/16-mobile-theses

K.

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
"On the other hand, Magenta targets modern phones and modern personal
computers with fast processors, non-trivial amounts of ram with arbitrary
peripherals doing open ended computation" (link)
<https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/magenta/blob/master/docs/mg_and_lk.md>
It might be not enough to guess what Fuchsia is, but at least we now know
what Fuchsia is NOT: it's not something that unifies Android and Chrome OS.
And it's not something that specifically targets IoT. My conjecture: it's a
monumental effort of extraordinary complexity, probably surpasses
everything we ever saw or even imagined before. Less sure, but I think it
will push golang as primary language somehow (*). Dart will be there, too,
of course, among other things big and small, but with no special role.
Sorry for pure speculation (for the lack of reliable data) Feel free to
deny.
(*) beatings will continue until morale improves.
.

[tatumizer-v0.2]

Did some research, and eventually managed to unearth something that is
alleged to be a high-level design diagram of new OS.
While certainly looks promising, some experts still doubt the authenticity
of the document. It would be interesting to revisit the subject in a couple
of years to see how much of the original design survives, and what new
elements get added along the way. Stay tuned.




<Loading Image...>

[tatumizer-v0.2]

@kc: Dart App running in container under Fuchsia inside Android planted
into ChromeOS embedded in Linux?
It certainly makes total sense, but I'm afraid it leaves too many questions
unanswered. Where is golang in this picture? Where is WebAssembly? Will
golang be implemented in WebAssembly? Or WebAssembly implemented in
golang? And how about rust? System will never work unless it's written in
rust (it will immediately crash on NPE or buffer overflow). I don't even
mention AI bots! On what level of hierarchy do we have AI bots? There's
much more room for speculation than your (simplistic) post assumes.

[kc]

Lmao.

Could an actual Googler clarify things. Open means more than chucking things into github.

K.

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
@kc: Dart App running in container under Fuchsia inside Android planted
into ChromeOS embedded in Linux?

– bob

[kc]

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
@kc: Dart App running in container under Fuchsia inside Android planted
into ChromeOS embedded in Linux?

- So "Pink + Purple == Fuchsia (a new Operating System)" is Android +

ChromeOS == a new OS with secure multi-lang platform access to run on Pixel
devices?

- No, it's a new OS for AI hybrid toaster-kettle style devices. To give
users a sense of existential dread that it's all just a simulation.
Inception.

K.

– bob

[krupal shah]

http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/08/12/google-developing-new-fuchsia-os-also-likes-making-new-words/

It would be better if Google would elaborate something about it before
rumour gets viral.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
@kc: Dart App running in container under Fuchsia inside Android planted
into ChromeOS embedded in Linux?

– bob

[kc]

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
@kc: Dart App running in container under Fuchsia inside Android planted
into ChromeOS embedded in Linux?
It certainly makes total sense, but I'm afraid it leaves too many
questions unanswered. Where is golang in this picture? Where is
WebAssembly? Will golang be implemented in WebAssembly? Or WebAssembly
implemented in golang? And how about rust? System will never work unless
it's written in rust (it will immediately crash on NPE or buffer overflow).
I don't even mention AI bots! On what level of hierarchy do we have AI
bots? There's much more room for speculation than your (simplistic) post
assumes.

Simply can't understand the scepticism you're expressing here Alex.
A bit of simplistic Google 'Kremlinology' - surely a Russian can appreciate
this.

K.

[krupal shah]

I would hope that will be a cloud based web OS where we do not need to
update apps once installed just like the web. It should be made with Dart
front-end and Go at the backed of the OS is a solid idea.Platform
eventually needs language to make apps. Dart is the obvious choice for
that. Google has made little progress in things like that such as Android
instant apps; but we can hope something bigger.

Post by kc

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
@kc: Dart App running in container under Fuchsia inside Android planted
into ChromeOS embedded in Linux?
It certainly makes total sense, but I'm afraid it leaves too many
questions unanswered. Where is golang in this picture? Where is
WebAssembly? Will golang be implemented in WebAssembly? Or WebAssembly
implemented in golang? And how about rust? System will never work
unless it's written in rust (it will immediately crash on NPE or buffer
overflow). I don't even mention AI bots! On what level of hierarchy do we
have AI bots? There's much more room for speculation than your (simplistic)
post assumes.

Simply can't understand the scepticism you're expressing here Alex.
A bit of simplistic Google 'Kremlinology' - surely a Russian can
appreciate this.
K.
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[tatumizer-v0.2]

After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined with
certain amount of googling.

What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia OS is
a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it... is a
reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally BeOS, but a
kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same group of
individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't want
to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).

Not a bad scoop, is it?

I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative effort
Possibly even a T-shirt

--Alex

[kc]

Excellent sleuthing. Any CORBA? Or even OpenDoc?

K.

[krupal shah]

interesting. But why Dart (as a platform) is playing here?

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined with
certain amount of googling.
What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia OS is
a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it... is a
reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally BeOS, but
a kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same group of
individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't want
to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).
Not a bad scoop, is it?
I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative effort
Possibly even a T-shirt
--Alex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[Daniel Morilha]

IMHO Dart is the unifying language in Google's strategy

On Aug 8, 2016 10:10 AM, "krupal shah" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

interesting. But why Dart (as a platform) is playing here?

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined with
certain amount of googling.
What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia OS is
a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it... is a
reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally BeOS, but
a kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same group of
individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't want
to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).
Not a bad scoop, is it?
I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative effort
Possibly even a T-shirt
--Alex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/

For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart

To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Filipe Morgado]

It can't be.

Dart is far from offering the performance needed for games, codecs,
big-data/scientific apps, etc ...
We can't even efficiently run 64-bits cryptography.

And a Dart app will always consume at least twice as much battery as an
equivalent app written in a systems language.

I don't know how AoT code performs but we're missing important features at
the language level to unify anything, unless Dart 2.0 brings native
arithmetic, structs, allocation control, etc

Post by Daniel Morilha
IMHO Dart is the unifying language in Google's strategy
interesting. But why Dart (as a platform) is playing here?

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined with
certain amount of googling.
What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia
OS is a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it...
is a reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally
BeOS, but a kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same
group of individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't want
to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).
Not a bad scoop, is it?
I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative effort
Possibly even a T-shirt
--Alex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[kc]

Post by Filipe Morgado
It can't be.
Dart is far from offering the performance needed for games, codecs,
big-data/scientific apps, etc ...
We can't even efficiently run 64-bits cryptography.
And a Dart app will always consume at least twice as much battery as an
equivalent app written in a systems language.
I don't know how AoT code performs but we're missing important features at
the language level to unify anything, unless Dart 2.0 brings native
arithmetic, structs, allocation control, etc

There has been a lot of debate in the Swift community. Some complaints of a
loss of dynamism to get low level perf.
http://inessential.com/2016/04/21/performance_these_days

I’d rather we focused harder on making writing high-quality apps easier. A

Post by Filipe Morgado
scripting language, or something spiritually close, that took the best
parts of Swift, but was much smaller and simpler, more supple, that ran on
the Objective-C runtime — dynamic dispatch and all — would have been ideal.
I could fly in that language.

I get the feeling that that what some people were after was Objective C to
become 2 langs - one high level dynamic 'Objective' - and another subset
that could be dropped down into for static numeric performance 'C'.

The Dart team - with their Smalltalk/Newspeak background - obviously
believe in dynamic object languages.

K.

[tatumizer-v0.2]

@kc: I saw this "modular" thing, but didn't post the news - thought it was
a hallucination. Which it probably was.
I remember similar ideas discussed in the 80s. Too bad Google Books project
died - it would be a lot of fun re-reading old publications in s/w and h/w
journals of the time. Now, each new generation has to re-invent everything
from scratch.

I think more realistic solution would be to make use of animals'
intelligence: Rabbit, Raccoon and Squirrel could be employed to search for
relevant APIs, for a modest fee. This would give them an opportunity to do
some useful job, other than eating flowers planted by my wife in our
backyard.

[tatumizer-v0.2]

Let's face it guys: we still have no idea what Fuchsia is. We have to admit
it.
But I have a plan!
Write an article with all the scoops we know so far, and whatever we don't
know - just make it up. Add a couple of wildly outlandish claims for
dramatic effect. Post on HN - it will become an instant hit! Then wait for
denial. I think it will work, no?

[Filipe Morgado]

I would say they're trying to make an OS out of Chrome's underlying
architecture, bringing it closer to the metal by removing/optimizing some
kernel boundaries.
That would be a performance boost for Chrome itself.

Eventually, they may implement some services usually found in the Linux
Kernel (such as Network <https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/network/> or
Native_viewport <https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/native_viewport/>) in
user-space as regular mojo services.
Maybe LK/Magenta is a micro-kernel, and everything runs in user-space as
services, even filesystems, drivers, etc ... improving security.

The presence of a dart_content_handler
<https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/dart_content_handler/> may indicate
first-class support for Dart apps (faster instantiation and closer to
metal?), otherwise they would just run the DartVM as a regular application,
I suppose. I don't know much about Flutter's internals, so maybe it's just
Flutter's Dart handler ported to Fuchsia.

Everything here is possibly wrong, but I don't think it will matter anytime
soon. Not until Fuchsia can run pretty much anything on the app store.
They're not creating another ecosystem, not when they already have
Android's and Chrome's.

(My speculative 2 cts for the article)

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
Let's face it guys: we still have no idea what Fuchsia is. We have to
admit it.
But I have a plan!
Write an article with all the scoops we know so far, and whatever we don't
know - just make it up. Add a couple of wildly outlandish claims for
dramatic effect. Post on HN - it will become an instant hit! Then wait for
denial. I think it will work, no?

[Filipe Morgado]

It got out on HN. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12271354>

There's already some good info there.

[kc]

Post by Filipe Morgado
I would say they're trying to make an OS out of Chrome's underlying
architecture, bringing it closer to the metal by removing/optimizing some
kernel boundaries.
That would be a performance boost for Chrome itself.
Eventually, they may implement some services usually found in the Linux
Kernel (such as Network <https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/network/> or
Native_viewport <https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/native_viewport/>) in
user-space as regular mojo services.
Maybe LK/Magenta is a micro-kernel, and everything runs in user-space as
services, even filesystems, drivers, etc ... improving security.
The presence of a dart_content_handler
<https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/dart_content_handler/> may indicate
first-class support for Dart apps (faster instantiation and closer to
metal?), otherwise they would just run the DartVM as a regular application,
I suppose. I don't know much about Flutter's internals, so maybe it's just
Flutter's Dart handler ported to Fuchsia.
Everything here is possibly wrong, but I don't think it will matter
anytime soon. Not until Fuchsia can run pretty much anything on the app
store.
They're not creating another ecosystem, not when they already have
Android's and Chrome's and when they're trying to merge those.
(My speculative 2 cts for the article)

If devs buy into Fluttter for Android (and iOS) then apps will be Fuschia
ready in the Play store. Google at some point need to provide a *roadmap*.

K.

[tatumizer-v0.2]

You see - the idea worked beyond expectations! Just a couple of hours after
my appeal the post appeared on HN and made it into the first page!
Not clear who submitted it (not me!), but now we know a thing or two.
Accepting congratulations. Fuchsia T-shirt? Beer party with Fuchsia
developers?

[Filipe Morgado]

I agree that "developer performance" is nowadays more important than
"software performance" ... for most apps.

But ...

Around 2 years ago, my bosses were searching for alternatives to replace
our Flash/Air stack for games, and would ultimately go for the native
offerings.
I tried proposing Dart with StageXL, even tried building an engine
optimized for the APIs we used, but I couldn't get half the performance of
Flash, not even in Dartium, even though Stage3D is very similar to WebGL.
Needless to say my proposal was scrapped.
(We are quite knowledgeable about AS3 performance, final fields/classes
when possible, object caches, avoid certain APIs, etc ... and Adobe Scout
is amazing).
We're still using Flash today.

The better the performance, the more room you have for graphics, particles,
physics, etc ... which will make your game faster and more beautiful.
And if you don't have a certain degree of control over allocations, your
animations will stutter.

Of course, I would use Dart over anything for apps which are mainly UI.

I just don't understand why the following code:
void main() {
print (new Point(0, 0).distanceTo(new Point(10, 10));
}
... has to actually allocate a bunch of Points and Doubles when all
abstractions can be removed and objects flattened on-stack.

Post by kc

Post by Filipe Morgado
It can't be.
Dart is far from offering the performance needed for games, codecs,
big-data/scientific apps, etc ...
We can't even efficiently run 64-bits cryptography.
And a Dart app will always consume at least twice as much battery as an
equivalent app written in a systems language.
I don't know how AoT code performs but we're missing important features
at the language level to unify anything, unless Dart 2.0 brings native
arithmetic, structs, allocation control, etc

There has been a lot of debate in the Swift community. Some complaints of
a loss of dynamism to get low level perf.
http://inessential.com/2016/04/21/performance_these_days
I’d rather we focused harder on making writing high-quality apps easier. A

Post by Filipe Morgado
scripting language, or something spiritually close, that took the best
parts of Swift, but was much smaller and simpler, more supple, that ran on
the Objective-C runtime — dynamic dispatch and all — would have been ideal.
I could fly in that language.

I get the feeling that that what some people were after was Objective C to
become 2 langs - one high level dynamic 'Objective' - and another subset
that could be dropped down into for static numeric performance 'C'.
The Dart team - with their Smalltalk/Newspeak background - obviously
believe in dynamic object languages.
K.

[krupal shah]

Don't know about Dart 2.0 but they have already Go for that - concurrent,
fast and fun systems programming language. Why would they chose dart?

Post by Daniel Morilha
IMHO Dart is the unifying language in Google's strategy
interesting. But why Dart (as a platform) is playing here?

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined with
certain amount of googling.
What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia
OS is a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it...
is a reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally
BeOS, but a kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same
group of individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't want
to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).
Not a bad scoop, is it?
I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative effort
Possibly even a T-shirt
--Alex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Kévin Platel]

Because, as Java, python, Ruby ... have been created for more higher level
operation, Dart may be the high level language (as JS was for MozillaOS) of
a plateform build with Go as low level system language

May be

Post by krupal shah
Don't know about Dart 2.0 but they have already Go for that - concurrent,
fast and fun systems programming language. Why would they chose dart?

Post by Daniel Morilha
IMHO Dart is the unifying language in Google's strategy
interesting. But why Dart (as a platform) is playing here?

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined
with certain amount of googling.
What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia
OS is a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it...
is a reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally
BeOS, but a kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same
group of individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't
want to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).
Not a bad scoop, is it?
I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative
effort Possibly even a T-shirt
--Alex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
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--
PLATEL Kévin
Android Developper at Netatmo

[Filipe Morgado]

Programmers are very emotional about their tools and languages, even about
how their code is formatted.
So good luck building a successful OS targeted by a single language.

Personally, I can't stand Go and I wouldn't use it if I had a choice, but I
love Dart.

Fuchsia needs a systems language, such as C++ or Rust ... and a high-level
language such as JS or Dart.
Go is kinda in-between those, not performant enough for critical systems
and not appealing enough for the masses.

The good news is ... mojo seems to be at the heart of Fuchsia. So we'll
probably be able to develop apps/services in any language we want.

Looking forward to interoperate Dart and Rust!!!

[kc]

Code once for Android, iOS and 'Fuchsia'. Also target the web.

K.

Post by Daniel Morilha
IMHO Dart is the unifying language in Google's strategy
interesting. But why Dart (as a platform) is playing here?

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined with
certain amount of googling.
What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia
OS is a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it...
is a reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally
BeOS, but a kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same
group of individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't want
to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).
Not a bad scoop, is it?
I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative effort
Possibly even a T-shirt
--Alex
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[kc]

Alex - there's more. New Fuchsia repo - Modular:

Modular is an experimental application platform.

It provides a post-API programming model. Rather than basing all service
calls on pre-negotiated contracts between known modules, the system enables
modules to call by meaning, specifying goals and semantic data types along
side traditional typed function inputs and outputs, and letting the system
work out how those semantic goals are satisfied and what services are
employed.

https://fuchsia.googlesource.com/modular/

Taligent? Back to the 90's? Could fsb operative Mezoni investigate?

K.

After spending weekend browsing aimlessly through fuchsia repository,
eventually noticed something that drew my attention (upon putting on a
helmet and looking under infrared light): most of Copyright notices in the
source code attribute it to Google, Inc. which is expected. But some (not
all!) have double copyright owner! And this "other owner" attribution gives
you a CLUE. The rest simply follows from deductive method, combined with
certain amount of googling.
What I discovered in the end was nothing short of SENSATIONAL:. Fuchsia OS is
a ... please sit down and take a deep breath before reading it... is a
reincarnation of BeOS!!! YES, BeOS!! Well, maybe not literally BeOS, but
a kind of spiritual successor to it - brought to you by the same group of
individuals!. How about that?
There's a long chain of syllogisms that leads to discovery - I don't want
to bother you with specifics. (If someone is interested, please let me
know: I think I managed to reconstruct the entire, many-year-long, history
of the project).
Not a bad scoop, is it?
I expect much praise leveled at me for my Herculean investigative effort
Possibly even a T-shirt
--Alex

[kc]

Re Instant apps. I'm guessing Fuchsia will have a Material Design ui oriented around Cards accessing services.

K.

[tatumizer-v0.2]

A bit of history:

[kc]

Post by kc
Some speculation...
Google has two operating systems - Android and Chrome OS.
Both are Linux based with the Linux security/permissions architecture -
process/files.
Android has a further security/permissions architecture embedded in the in
the Dalvik/ART runtime.
Chrome OS is based on the Web security model.
Google has created a unified design language - Material Design.
Android and Chrome OS/Web were retrofitted with the Material Design ui
language.
Flutter is designed from the ground up with Material Design in mind.
Flutter went with the Dart VM - and can be packaged as an apk on Android
(and also iOS .ipa).
On Chromebooks things get a bit too inception-esque. Flutter/Dart running
in an Android apk/runtime on ChromeOS.
Fuchsia OS is thus a replacement for Chrome OS - where the UI is Material
Design - and Flutter/DartVM are first class 'native'.
The Fuchsia security/permission architecture is object capability (ocap) -
to get beyond the Linux/Android/Web models.
The Fuchsia kernel is LK based and wrapped in an ocap layer - Magenta.
Fuchsia will initially target mobile devices bigger than phones -
tablets/2in1's/Ultrabooks - Pixel C and Chromebooks. (*)
Flutter apps can thus target Android, iOS and Fuchsia.
(*) Everything is mobile.
http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2015/12/15/16-mobile-theses

A Fuchsia team member explains:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/vote?id=12273095&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D12271354>

Post by kc
mckillop 7 hours ago [-]
Purple - A system with high performance graphics, low-latency input, and a
beautiful UI.
Pink - An incredibly modular system for developers and users.

https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=mckillop

I see Fuchsia as: We now have great mobile hardware - arm64/x86_64 +
opengl/vulcan - lets build an OS which can really exploit it and provide a
'native' Material Design UI for form factors from phones, 2-in-1's,
ultrabooks etc.
Like this device which is mentioned:
http://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/switchalpha12
(Which is exactly the form factor I'm interested in).

How they manage non-visual platform services - like Contacts etc - will be
interesting.

K.

[kc]

Post by kc
<https://news.ycombinator.com/vote?id=12273095&how=up&goto=item%3Fid%3D12271354>

Post by kc
mckillop 7 hours ago [-]
Purple - A system with high performance graphics, low-latency input, and
a beautiful UI.
Pink - An incredibly modular system for developers and users.

This looks retrofitted. Really:

Purple = iPhone
Pink = Taligent

Mobile + PC.

K.

[Smit Joshi]

this must be interesting. https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui . Updated
10 minutes ago. lol

Post by kc
https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.

[Michael Francis]

This is just killing me not knowing what this is. But at the same time it
is fun seeing it progress and getting more hints. But whatever it is it's
exciting to see Dart being such a large part of it.

Post by Smit Joshi
this must be interesting. https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui .
Updated 10 minutes ago. lol

Post by kc
https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.
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[kc]

I think Smit is right - an OS than spans iOT/Home - Phone - Tablet/2in1 -
ultrabook - desktop. With a mobile philosophy - instant on, ssd,
secure/sandboxed, and a fluid Material Design interface,

With an MIT style licence which is more hardware friendly - which should
drive the development of interesting devices.

K.

Post by Michael Francis
This is just killing me not knowing what this is. But at the same time it
is fun seeing it progress and getting more hints. But whatever it is it's
exciting to see Dart being such a large part of it.

Post by Smit Joshi
this must be interesting. https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui .
Updated 10 minutes ago. lol

Post by kc
https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.
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[Filipe Morgado]

Indeed!

Micro-kernels are a lot more flexible, despite usually coming with a
performance penalty. It should be a lot easier to scale from IoT to desktop
just by adding/removing services, with little to no kernel support for
advanced features.

After the Google-Oracle conflict and the recently discovered Linux kernel
and OpenSSL vulnerabilities which affect Android and their servers, Google
is pushing aggressively to control all of its software stack and free
itself from third parties. There may have been conflicts between Google and
The Linux kernel devs regarding the direction and flexibility of the
project.

With so much stack control and market share, I wouldn't be surprised if
Google starts designing their own SoCs, with special
instructions/coprocessors to accelerate Fuchsia internals and/or
heavily-used libraries/services. They apparently already designed the
TensorFlow Processing Unit (TPU). An hardware-accelerated garbage collector
for Dart and C++ would be nice.

I hope Fuchsia will someday target servers as well ... of course with
native Dart support.

My speculative 2 cts.

Post by kc
I think Smit is right - an OS than spans iOT/Home - Phone - Tablet/2in1 -
ultrabook - desktop. With a mobile philosophy - instant on, ssd,
secure/sandboxed, and a fluid Material Design interface,
With an MIT style licence which is more hardware friendly - which should
drive the development of interesting devices.
K.

Post by Michael Francis
This is just killing me not knowing what this is. But at the same time it
is fun seeing it progress and getting more hints. But whatever it is it's
exciting to see Dart being such a large part of it.

Post by Smit Joshi
this must be interesting. https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui .
Updated 10 minutes ago. lol

Post by kc
https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.
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[Filipe Morgado]

As a curiosity, a new IPC mechanism <https://lwn.net/Articles/697191/> has
been proposed to the Linux Kernel.

Didn't dive into details, but it seems pretty similar to Fuchsia's handles.

[krupal shah]

Interesting. Even more interesting
: https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/modular.

This must be interesting. https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui .
This repository contains System UI bits for the Fuchsia operating system.
Now things are a bit clear for the new OS. Dart is used for System UI:=)
It is using flutter.
https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui/commit/94f478bffac8e22ac9e65b5c379df3823a19b270

A wild armadillo appears.

It is unclear that what Android and iOS are doing in other OS's System UI
repo.
It may be another mobile operating system. (Really?)
or may be mobile + IOT + PC ??? who knows may be!

https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.

[tatumizer-v0.2]

Nothing special. It's just an AI bot (see item E on the diagram
<https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!msg/misc/FaVifmpV8QE/s0kvncZ9CgAJ>
above)

[Benjamin Strauß]

Fuchsia reveal on Oct 4, 2016 ?

https://twitter.com/lockheimer/status/779757830203068416

Post by kc
https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.

[krupal shah]

http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/09/24/googles-merged-android-chrome-os-andromeda-may-be-teased-on-october-4th/

Post by Benjamin Strauß
Fuchsia reveal on Oct 4, 2016 ?
https://twitter.com/lockheimer/status/779757830203068416

Post by kc
https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.
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[kc]

Post by krupal shah
http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/09/24/googles-merged-android-chrome-os-andromeda-may-be-teased-on-october-4th/

Is Andromeda a separate initiative from Fuchsia?

Dev's who may want to invest time in Dart/Flutter need a roadmap from
someone senior at Google.

On Oct 4th will Hiroshi Lockheimer mention Dart/Flutter as part of Googles
client side strategy. A demo of Flutter Gallery on Android, iOS and preview
Andromeda? With Fuchsia mentioned as longer term thing.

This would make sense strategically - code once in Dart Flutter for:
- Android
- iOS
- Andromeda - the Android/Chrome convergence
- Fuchsia - a longer term bet which will have Dart at its core.
- Dart Angular 2.0 for the web

K.

[Joe Blue]

EVERYONE would love a roadmap. Me too...

But its google, so your just have to get used to the way things work:

Also i believe google dont want to drop their pants for commercial /
competitive reasons.
Letting MS, Apple know what the game plan is ruins all the fun & potential
to capture market share.


Joe

Post by kc

Post by krupal shah
http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/09/24/googles-merged-android-chrome-os-andromeda-may-be-teased-on-october-4th/

Is Andromeda a separate initiative from Fuchsia?
Dev's who may want to invest time in Dart/Flutter need a roadmap from
someone senior at Google.
On Oct 4th will Hiroshi Lockheimer mention Dart/Flutter as part of Googles
client side strategy. A demo of Flutter Gallery on Android, iOS and preview
Andromeda? With Fuchsia mentioned as longer term thing.
- Android
- iOS
- Andromeda - the Android/Chrome convergence
- Fuchsia - a longer term bet which will have Dart at its core.
- Dart Angular 2.0 for the web
K.
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['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Joe Blue
http://youtu.be/azxoVRTwlNg
Also i believe google dont want to drop their pants for commercial /
competitive reasons.
Letting MS, Apple know what the game plan is ruins all the fun & potential
to capture market share.

I can't speak for the rest of Google, but I don't believe the latter
influences what we say about the roadmap for the language itself.

If we were to say, "In Dart 2.0, we're adding monads," (*) I don't think
all of a sudden the TypeScript and Swift folks would go, "Quick! We need to
get monads in before they do!"

– bob

* We are not planning to add monads in Dart 2.0.

[Benjamin Strauß]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
* We are not planning to add monads in Dart 2.0.

You mean besides Future. ;)

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Benjamin Strauß
You mean besides Future. ;)

And Iterable. And Stream. :)

– bob

[kc]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Joe Blue
http://youtu.be/azxoVRTwlNg
Also i believe google dont want to drop their pants for commercial /
competitive reasons.
Letting MS, Apple know what the game plan is ruins all the fun &
potential to capture market share.

I can't speak for the rest of Google, but I don't believe the latter
influences what we say about the roadmap for the language itself.
If we were to say, "In Dart 2.0, we're adding monads," (*) I don't think
all of a sudden the TypeScript and Swift folks would go, "Quick! We need to
get monads in before they do!"

Re roadmap- I wasn't talking specifically about Dart 2.0. Rather about how
Android/Chrome/Flutter (and Dart) are part of the future re a unification
story both for users and devs.

Sensible developers will not take a bet on Dart or Flutter unless there is
some clear guidance on where things are going.

Also a problem for Flutter/Dart is the requirement for a Mac (pricey) or
Linux (tricky). Google ideally should offer an OS on which dev can be done
in a structured but fun/lightweight manner. Andromeda or Fuchsia?

K.

[Joe Blue]

This all started with GRPC.
Protobuf has been in Dart for yonks.
https://github.com/dart-lang/dart-protobuf

You can do allot with just protobufs before google 7 Dart do GRPC

Post by kc

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Joe Blue
http://youtu.be/azxoVRTwlNg
Also i believe google dont want to drop their pants for commercial /
competitive reasons.
Letting MS, Apple know what the game plan is ruins all the fun &
potential to capture market share.

I can't speak for the rest of Google, but I don't believe the latter
influences what we say about the roadmap for the language itself.
If we were to say, "In Dart 2.0, we're adding monads," (*) I don't think
all of a sudden the TypeScript and Swift folks would go, "Quick! We need to
get monads in before they do!"

Re roadmap- I wasn't talking specifically about Dart 2.0. Rather about how
Android/Chrome/Flutter (and Dart) are part of the future re a unification
story both for users and devs.
Sensible developers will not take a bet on Dart or Flutter unless there is
some clear guidance on where things are going.
Also a problem for Flutter/Dart is the requirement for a Mac (pricey) or
Linux (tricky). Google ideally should offer an OS on which dev can be done
in a structured but fun/lightweight manner. Andromeda or Fuchsia?
K.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[kc]

Post by kc

Post by krupal shah
http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/09/24/googles-merged-android-chrome-os-andromeda-may-be-teased-on-october-4th/

Is Andromeda a separate initiative from Fuchsia?
Dev's who may want to invest time in Dart/Flutter need a roadmap from
someone senior at Google.
On Oct 4th will Hiroshi Lockheimer mention Dart/Flutter as part of Googles
client side strategy. A demo of Flutter Gallery on Android, iOS and preview
Andromeda? With Fuchsia mentioned as longer term thing.

Nope. Was like Alex Jones and Julian Assange.

K.

[kc]

https://madeby.google.com/

The teaser animation seems to show a phone form factor. Maybe a arm64 Pixel
phone with enough power to drive a 'desktop' like the Ubuntu Phone idea.

K.

Post by Benjamin Strauß
Fuchsia reveal on Oct 4, 2016 ?
https://twitter.com/lockheimer/status/779757830203068416

Post by kc
https://twitter.com/_dohyung_/status/760341178520702977
I've long thought that Google needs an OS focused on modern mobile
hardware with an emphasis on security/ocap and performance which unifies
Android and Chrome OS, apps and web, devices from phones to tablets/2in1's
to ultrabooks with a Material Design ui.
Is this what Fuchsia is? An experiment?
If Dart is a first class player on this platform then all to the good.
K.

[Filipe Morgado]

My guess is that it's way too early for Fuchsia.
I'd give it 2-3 more years at least.

Post by Benjamin Strauß
Fuchsia reveal on Oct 4, 2016 ?
https://twitter.com/lockheimer/status/779757830203068416