[dart-misc] The present and future of editors and IDEs for Dart (Educational Perspective)

[Marco Jakob]

As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
<http://news.dartlang.org/2015/04/the-present-and-future-of-editors-and.html>:
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*

The New Strategy

- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.


The Problem for Starters and Education

I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but I
see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.

I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most of
them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart as
the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in using
Dart for education:

- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage like
older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and even
works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...


Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the code
editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are really
difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.

In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new to
Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very easy
to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.

Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of the
Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the current
strategy:

- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You will
have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming in
Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's much more
fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just using the
command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In schools
it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was easy as it
was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers but
to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community Edition
could be used but that requires an additional step to install the Dart
Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has a
lot of menus and buttons).



Possible Solution

Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I hope
you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.

One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.

If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think it
is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!

[Davy Mitchell]

I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a lot
of barriers for getting started with Dart.

I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute Eclipse+Dart
plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc is just a
turn off for potential new Dartisans.

Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but I
see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage like
older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and even
works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the code
editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are really
difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new to
Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very easy
to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You will
have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's much
more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just using
the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has a
lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I hope
you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think it
is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

[Lex Berezhny]

Given that Eclipse plugin will continue to be officially
developed/supported. And Dart Editor is open source. Seems like for the
most part releasing new editions of Dart Editor is just a matter of
updating the dependencies (Eclipse + Dart plugin) and re-releasing
(although I have not looked at Dart Editor in detail, so I could be wrong
on that point).

I think it makes a lot of sense for Google to abandon Dart Editor (and all
of the support/headache that comes with that) and focus on the engineering
side of things while allowing the community (in case of Dart Editor /
Eclipse) or a 3rd party (in case of WebStorm/IntelliJ) to provide the IDE
experience (read: deal with annoying/annoyed users when stuff doesn't work).

- lex

[Filipe Morgado]

+1

Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay for
the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.

Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a lot
of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute Eclipse+Dart
plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc is just a
turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but I
see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage like
older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the code
editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are really
difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new
to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very
easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You will
have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's
much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just
using the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has
a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think it
is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

[Don Olmstead]

Thats absurd to say. While it would be nice for Google to have an agreement
with JetBrains like it does with Android Studio there are plenty of plugins
for different editors.

https://www.dartlang.org/tools/

Use Sublime if you want the light weight editor for your students or want
to bootstrap colleagues.

Post by Filipe Morgado
+1
Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay for
the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.
Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a lot
of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute Eclipse+Dart
plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc is just a
turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but
I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new
to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very
easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's
much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just
using the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has
a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think
it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Bernardo]

It should be noted that Sublime Text isn't free either.

Post by Don Olmstead
Thats absurd to say. While it would be nice for Google to have an
agreement with JetBrains like it does with Android Studio there are plenty
of plugins for different editors.
https://www.dartlang.org/tools/
Use Sublime if you want the light weight editor for your students or want
to bootstrap colleagues.

Post by Filipe Morgado
+1
Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay for
the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.
Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a
lot of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute
Eclipse+Dart plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc
is just a turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but
I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming,
most of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting
Dart as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an
object, etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new
to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very
easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to
programming in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I
think it's much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead
of just using the command line. So I published a library called
hello_dart <https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that
creates a visual world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a
way to include libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor
(has a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think
it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

['Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc]

Which is one reason I'd like to see more support for Atom, which can
actually run plugins written in Dart thanks to Mr. Endfinger and friends :)

Post by Bernardo
It should be noted that Sublime Text isn't free either.

Post by Don Olmstead
Thats absurd to say. While it would be nice for Google to have an
agreement with JetBrains like it does with Android Studio there are plenty
of plugins for different editors.
https://www.dartlang.org/tools/
Use Sublime if you want the light weight editor for your students or want
to bootstrap colleagues.

Post by Filipe Morgado
+1
Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay for
the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.
Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a
lot of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute
Eclipse+Dart plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc
is just a turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on
the official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects
but I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in
education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming,
most of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting
Dart as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an
object, etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people
new to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is
very easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus
and buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority
of the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to
programming in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I
think it's much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead
of just using the command line. So I published a library called
hello_dart <https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that
creates a visual world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide
a way to include libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open
the hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
Download, Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in
Webstorm. Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for
schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for
students/teachers but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free
IntelliJ Community Edition could be used but that requires an additional
step to install the Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor
(has a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think
it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Austin Cummings]

Kenneth and I have been putting some work into the atom-dart package. We
have been working out some kinks with the JS interop, but we're making
progress and hope to soon have support for calling most of the common SDK
functions. Then after that we will integrate the analysis server.

On Fri, May 1, 2015, 11:06 AM 'Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc
Which is one reason I'd like to see more support for Atom, which can
actually run plugins written in Dart thanks to Mr. Endfinger and friends :)

Post by Bernardo
It should be noted that Sublime Text isn't free either.

Post by Don Olmstead
Thats absurd to say. While it would be nice for Google to have an
agreement with JetBrains like it does with Android Studio there are plenty
of plugins for different editors.
https://www.dartlang.org/tools/
Use Sublime if you want the light weight editor for your students or
want to bootstrap colleagues.

Post by Filipe Morgado
+1
Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay
for the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.
Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a
lot of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute
Eclipse+Dart plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc
is just a turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on
the official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects
but I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in
education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming,
most of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting
Dart as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an
object, etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people
new to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is
very easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus
and buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority
of the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to
programming in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>.
I think it's much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners
instead of just using the command line. So I published a library called
hello_dart <https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that
creates a visual world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide
a way to include libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open
the hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
Download, Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in
Webstorm. Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for
schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for
students/teachers but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free
IntelliJ Community Edition could be used but that requires an additional
step to install the Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor
(has a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I
think it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Jos Hirth]

Post by Austin Cummings
Kenneth and I have been putting some work into the atom-dart package. We
have been working out some kinks with the JS interop, but we're making
progress and hope to soon have support for calling most of the common SDK
functions. Then after that we will integrate the analysis server.

Excellent news, Austin. TypeScript works really well in Atom. Would be
really nice indeed if Dart would work just as well.

By the way, Microsoft's VS Code (Microsoft's cross platform editor) is
build on top of the same stack as Atom. Once it starts to support plugins,
porting the plugin over to VS Code probably won't be too tricky.

[Thomas Schranz]

I use IntelliJ CE + Dart plugin which is a free solution.
You have to disable quite a few ui panes to get a lightweight experience
but I enjoy it a lot.

Strategically it makes a ton of sense to improve DartPad even more (support
for multiple files and packages)
as this provides the ultimate zero install and run everywhere experience.

I also would love to see support for Atom as a lot of people are using it
and having some of the DartPad features
like autocompletion and warnings within Atom would really stand out (=
popular lightweight fully open source solution).

Similarly impressive would be analyzer support in Vim but I have no clue
how hard it is to make this happen.

Post by Jos Hirth

Post by Austin Cummings
Kenneth and I have been putting some work into the atom-dart package. We
have been working out some kinks with the JS interop, but we're making
progress and hope to soon have support for calling most of the common SDK
functions. Then after that we will integrate the analysis server.

Excellent news, Austin. TypeScript works really well in Atom. Would be
really nice indeed if Dart would work just as well.
By the way, Microsoft's VS Code (Microsoft's cross platform editor) is
build on top of the same stack as Atom. Once it starts to support plugins,
porting the plugin over to VS Code probably won't be too tricky.

[Jos Hirth]

Post by Thomas Schranz
I use IntelliJ CE + Dart plugin which is a free solution.

IntelliJ CE doesn't support debugging, does it?

[Jim Trainor]

The editor is source code is open:
https://github.com/dart-lang/bleeding_edge/tree/master/dart/editor

... just pick up the project and carry on.

Even better: JetBrains have a program to provide free tools to students:
https://www.jetbrains.com/student/

Post by Jos Hirth

Post by Thomas Schranz
I use IntelliJ CE + Dart plugin which is a free solution.

IntelliJ CE doesn't support debugging, does it?
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Alex Tatumizer]

I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming in Dart

<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fcode.makery.ch%2Flibrary%2Fhello-dart%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEVSPJyCzm80jtASQMUYlJm_Z0RdA>.

WOW. The thing is more than tutorial- it's a work of art!
If DartPad could support it with no need to install anything locally - that
would be excellent.
Maybe the idea can be developed further - so that reading tutorial and
running the code becomes more seamless.
If a right combination is found, this can serve as a basis for a lot more
content.
Kudos to the author(s)!

[Filipe Morgado]

Post by Alex Tatumizer

Post by Marco Jakob
I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming in

Dart
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fcode.makery.ch%2Flibrary%2Fhello-dart%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEVSPJyCzm80jtASQMUYlJm_Z0RdA>
.

Just took a look.

Post by Alex Tatumizer
WOW. The thing is more than tutorial- it's a work of art!

Kudos to the author(s)!
+1 ... The kind of work that could really make a difference!

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Jos Hirth
IntelliJ CE doesn't support debugging, does it?

Yes, it does. I switched to WebStorm recently, but I used the free
community edition for several months to hack on my Dart code including lots
of heavy debugging. I found it, in every single respect, a better user
experience than the Editor.

- bob

[Adam Lofts]

Can you clarify if this is client side or server side debugging? I just
gave IntelliJ CE a spin and couldn't figure out how to debug an in-browser
app.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Jos Hirth
IntelliJ CE doesn't support debugging, does it?

Yes, it does. I switched to WebStorm recently, but I used the free
community edition for several months to hack on my Dart code including lots
of heavy debugging. I found it, in every single respect, a better user
experience than the Editor.
- bob

[Alex Tatumizer]

Gave WebStorm a try. Totally ecstatic experience! CTRL-F works!. This
feature alone more than justifies a price. Now, it someone is willing to
conduct an experiment: offer me $49.99 for switching back to DartEditor - I
will decline it in disgust!

Unfortunately, other features, while certainly exciting, require completely
rewiring your brain. To jump to declaration, you need to hit CTRL-B, which
is a bit unexpected. BTW, what is the motivation for choosing shortcuts
like this? Maybe, there's some mnemonic rule? If there's one, it's not
obvious: word "declaration" doesn't even contain "B" (though, equivalent
Russian word has "B" in a prominent position - maybe this is the
rationale?).

On the other hand, one may argue that "declaration" doesn't necessarily
have F3 written all over it either, so there's certainly a room for debate
here.

I'm sure there's a way to redefine keyboard shortcuts, but I think it's
equivalent to cheating. No, you have to learn it the hard way!

[Günter Zöchbauer]

There are pesets for VisualStudio, Eclipse, Emacs, ... you can choose from
or define your custom set.
Menu > File > Settings > Keymap > Keymaps

Post by Alex Tatumizer
Gave WebStorm a try. Totally ecstatic experience! CTRL-F works!. This
feature alone more than justifies a price. Now, it someone is willing to
conduct an experiment: offer me $49.99 for switching back to DartEditor - I
will decline it in disgust!
Unfortunately, other features, while certainly exciting, require
completely rewiring your brain. To jump to declaration, you need to hit
CTRL-B, which is a bit unexpected. BTW, what is the motivation for choosing
shortcuts like this? Maybe, there's some mnemonic rule? If there's one,
it's not obvious: word "declaration" doesn't even contain "B" (though,
equivalent Russian word has "B" in a prominent position - maybe this is the
rationale?).
On the other hand, one may argue that "declaration" doesn't necessarily
have F3 written all over it either, so there's certainly a room for debate
here.
I'm sure there's a way to redefine keyboard shortcuts, but I think it's
equivalent to cheating. No, you have to learn it the hard way!

[Jan Mostert]

Debugging client-side Dart code in Dartium (have yet to try it, but it's
being mentioned on Jetbrains):
https://www.jetbrains.com/webstorm/help/running-and-debugging-dart.html

No transpilation into JavaScript is required when you debug your Dart code

in Dartium.
Configure the JavaScript debugger.
Configure and set breakpoints in the Dart code.
Proceed as if you were debugging JavaScript:Create a run/debug
configuration of the type JavaScript Debug.
Initiate a debugging session. For details about local and remote
debugging, about debugging single files and entire applications, see
Debugging JavaScript.
Install and configure the JetBrains Chrome Extension. For details, see
Live Editing of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
Step through the program, stop and resume program execution, examine it
when suspended, etc.

--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

There are pesets for VisualStudio, Eclipse, Emacs, ... you can choose from
or define your custom set.
Menu > File > Settings > Keymap > Keymaps

Post by Alex Tatumizer
Gave WebStorm a try. Totally ecstatic experience! CTRL-F works!. This
feature alone more than justifies a price. Now, it someone is willing to
conduct an experiment: offer me $49.99 for switching back to DartEditor - I
will decline it in disgust!
Unfortunately, other features, while certainly exciting, require
completely rewiring your brain. To jump to declaration, you need to hit
CTRL-B, which is a bit unexpected. BTW, what is the motivation for choosing
shortcuts like this? Maybe, there's some mnemonic rule? If there's one,
it's not obvious: word "declaration" doesn't even contain "B" (though,
equivalent Russian word has "B" in a prominent position - maybe this is the
rationale?).
On the other hand, one may argue that "declaration" doesn't necessarily
have F3 written all over it either, so there's certainly a room for debate
here.
I'm sure there's a way to redefine keyboard shortcuts, but I think it's
equivalent to cheating. No, you have to learn it the hard way!
--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Jan Mostert]

Also, I noticed when you go to Run -> Edit Configurations, you can add Dart
Remote Debug, default port being 5858, are there any parameters I need to
set when I do pub serve in order to make use of remote debug?

--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

Post by Jan Mostert
Debugging client-side Dart code in Dartium (have yet to try it, but it's
https://www.jetbrains.com/webstorm/help/running-and-debugging-dart.html
No transpilation into JavaScript is required when you debug your Dart code

in Dartium.
Configure the JavaScript debugger.
Configure and set breakpoints in the Dart code.
Proceed as if you were debugging JavaScript:Create a run/debug
configuration of the type JavaScript Debug.
Initiate a debugging session. For details about local and remote
debugging, about debugging single files and entire applications, see
Debugging JavaScript.
Install and configure the JetBrains Chrome Extension. For details, see
Live Editing of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
Step through the program, stop and resume program execution, examine it
when suspended, etc.

--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

There are pesets for VisualStudio, Eclipse, Emacs, ... you can choose
from or define your custom set.
Menu > File > Settings > Keymap > Keymaps

Post by Alex Tatumizer
Gave WebStorm a try. Totally ecstatic experience! CTRL-F works!. This
feature alone more than justifies a price. Now, it someone is willing to
conduct an experiment: offer me $49.99 for switching back to DartEditor - I
will decline it in disgust!
Unfortunately, other features, while certainly exciting, require
completely rewiring your brain. To jump to declaration, you need to hit
CTRL-B, which is a bit unexpected. BTW, what is the motivation for choosing
shortcuts like this? Maybe, there's some mnemonic rule? If there's one,
it's not obvious: word "declaration" doesn't even contain "B" (though,
equivalent Russian word has "B" in a prominent position - maybe this is the
rationale?).
On the other hand, one may argue that "declaration" doesn't necessarily
have F3 written all over it either, so there's certainly a room for debate
here.
I'm sure there's a way to redefine keyboard shortcuts, but I think it's
equivalent to cheating. No, you have to learn it the hard way!
--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Jan Mostert]

@Alex, you can also install the Vim plugin for WebStorm / IntelliJ if
you're used to working in Vim, if you already know Vim shortcut, you can be
very productive, never needing a mouse. While you're coding, use Vim keys,
switching to other files, committing, etc, use WebStorm / IntelliJ
shortcuts.
For example, if I want to do a window split, I just type *:split* or
*:vsplit* and I have a split window, if I want to search replace,
*:%s/find/replace/g*, Cmd+1 and I'm in my code explorer and can just type
the file name I'm looking for and it filters the whole list for me, Cmd+1
again and I'm back in Vim mode, want to jump to a declaration, just type
*gd* on the class and it jumps to the declaration, just awesome!
Eclipse also has a Vim plugin, but it it's horrible and not nearly as
smooth as the Jetbrains one.
Rewiring was worth it, can't go back to Eclipse for anything.




--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

Post by Jan Mostert
Also, I noticed when you go to Run -> Edit Configurations, you can add
Dart Remote Debug, default port being 5858, are there any parameters I need
to set when I do pub serve in order to make use of remote debug?
--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

Post by Jan Mostert
Debugging client-side Dart code in Dartium (have yet to try it, but it's
https://www.jetbrains.com/webstorm/help/running-and-debugging-dart.html
No transpilation into JavaScript is required when you debug your Dart

code in Dartium.
Configure the JavaScript debugger.
Configure and set breakpoints in the Dart code.
Proceed as if you were debugging JavaScript:Create a run/debug
configuration of the type JavaScript Debug.
Initiate a debugging session. For details about local and remote
debugging, about debugging single files and entire applications, see
Debugging JavaScript.
Install and configure the JetBrains Chrome Extension. For details, see
Live Editing of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
Step through the program, stop and resume program execution, examine it
when suspended, etc.

--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

There are pesets for VisualStudio, Eclipse, Emacs, ... you can choose
from or define your custom set.
Menu > File > Settings > Keymap > Keymaps

Post by Alex Tatumizer
Gave WebStorm a try. Totally ecstatic experience! CTRL-F works!. This
feature alone more than justifies a price. Now, it someone is willing to
conduct an experiment: offer me $49.99 for switching back to DartEditor - I
will decline it in disgust!
Unfortunately, other features, while certainly exciting, require
completely rewiring your brain. To jump to declaration, you need to hit
CTRL-B, which is a bit unexpected. BTW, what is the motivation for choosing
shortcuts like this? Maybe, there's some mnemonic rule? If there's one,
it's not obvious: word "declaration" doesn't even contain "B" (though,
equivalent Russian word has "B" in a prominent position - maybe this is the
rationale?).
On the other hand, one may argue that "declaration" doesn't necessarily
have F3 written all over it either, so there's certainly a room for debate
here.
I'm sure there's a way to redefine keyboard shortcuts, but I think it's
equivalent to cheating. No, you have to learn it the hard way!
--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

[Alex Tatumizer]

WOW. VIM rocks!
Thanks for the tip!

Post by Jan Mostert
@Alex, you can also install the Vim plugin for WebStorm / IntelliJ if
you're used to working in Vim, if you already know Vim shortcut, you can be
very productive, never needing a mouse. While you're coding, use Vim keys,
switching to other files, committing, etc, use WebStorm / IntelliJ
shortcuts.
For example, if I want to do a window split, I just type *:split* or
*:vsplit* and I have a split window, if I want to search replace,
*:%s/find/replace/g*, Cmd+1 and I'm in my code explorer and can just type
the file name I'm looking for and it filters the whole list for me, Cmd+1
again and I'm back in Vim mode, want to jump to a declaration, just type
*gd* on the class and it jumps to the declaration, just awesome!
Eclipse also has a Vim plugin, but it it's horrible and not nearly as
smooth as the Jetbrains one.
Rewiring was worth it, can't go back to Eclipse for anything.
--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

Post by Jan Mostert
Also, I noticed when you go to Run -> Edit Configurations, you can add
Dart Remote Debug, default port being 5858, are there any parameters I need
to set when I do pub serve in order to make use of remote debug?
--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

Post by Jan Mostert
Debugging client-side Dart code in Dartium (have yet to try it, but it's
https://www.jetbrains.com/webstorm/help/running-and-debugging-dart.html
No transpilation into JavaScript is required when you debug your Dart

code in Dartium.
Configure the JavaScript debugger.
Configure and set breakpoints in the Dart code.
Proceed as if you were debugging JavaScript:Create a run/debug
configuration of the type JavaScript Debug.
Initiate a debugging session. For details about local and remote
debugging, about debugging single files and entire applications, see
Debugging JavaScript.
Install and configure the JetBrains Chrome Extension. For details, see
Live Editing of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
Step through the program, stop and resume program execution, examine it
when suspended, etc.

--
Jan Vladimir Mostert
janvladimirmostert.com

There are pesets for VisualStudio, Eclipse, Emacs, ... you can choose
from or define your custom set.
Menu > File > Settings > Keymap > Keymaps

Post by Alex Tatumizer
Gave WebStorm a try. Totally ecstatic experience! CTRL-F works!. This
feature alone more than justifies a price. Now, it someone is willing to
conduct an experiment: offer me $49.99 for switching back to DartEditor - I
will decline it in disgust!
Unfortunately, other features, while certainly exciting, require
completely rewiring your brain. To jump to declaration, you need to hit
CTRL-B, which is a bit unexpected. BTW, what is the motivation for choosing
shortcuts like this? Maybe, there's some mnemonic rule? If there's one,
it's not obvious: word "declaration" doesn't even contain "B" (though,
equivalent Russian word has "B" in a prominent position - maybe this is the
rationale?).
On the other hand, one may argue that "declaration" doesn't
necessarily have F3 written all over it either, so there's certainly a room
for debate here.
I'm sure there's a way to redefine keyboard shortcuts, but I think
it's equivalent to cheating. No, you have to learn it the hard way!
--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Adam Lofts
Can you clarify if this is client side or server side debugging? I just
gave IntelliJ CE a spin and couldn't figure out how to debug an in-browser
app.

Oh, I should have specified here. I'm debugging command line apps. I'm not
sure what the web debugging story is like for IntelliJ, sorry.

- bob

[Rich Eakin]

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 12:01 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Adam Lofts
Can you clarify if this is client side or server side debugging? I just
gave IntelliJ CE a spin and couldn't figure out how to debug an in-browser
app.

Oh, I should have specified here. I'm debugging command line apps. I'm not
sure what the web debugging story is like for IntelliJ, sorry.

IIRC you can't debug code in a with IntelliJ CE, you need IntelliJ ultimate
or webstorm. Personally, I would love it if they added this as a feature
for the free version, since otherwise I'm having to switch to chrome to
debug web code.

[George Moschovitis]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Yes, it does. I switched to WebStorm recently, but I used the free
community edition for several months to hack on my Dart code including lots
of heavy debugging. I found it, in every single respect, a better user
experience than the Editor.

Not every single respect. working on multiple projects is much smoother on
Dart Editor.
I also miss the custom editor for pubspec files (with auto-complete for
packages).

-g.

[Monty Rasmussen]

Yes! The pubspec editor will be sorely, sorely missed.

[Kenneth Endfinger]

Austin and I will be ramping up development much more. I am very busy this
week however, school ends next week :)

Atom has great potential and I am excited to start working hard on the Dart
plugin for Atom. You will find that it is a full ide: We are actually going
to support 100% of the Analysis Server features, so as long as it's in the
Analysis Server, it will be in the Atom plugin :P

Post by 'Justin Fagnani' via Dart Misc
Which is one reason I'd like to see more support for Atom, which can
actually run plugins written in Dart thanks to Mr. Endfinger and friends :)

Post by Bernardo
It should be noted that Sublime Text isn't free either.

Post by Don Olmstead
Thats absurd to say. While it would be nice for Google to have an
agreement with JetBrains like it does with Android Studio there are plenty
of plugins for different editors.
https://www.dartlang.org/tools/
Use Sublime if you want the light weight editor for your students or
want to bootstrap colleagues.

Post by Filipe Morgado
+1
Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay
for the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.
Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a
lot of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute
Eclipse+Dart plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc
is just a turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on
the official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects
but I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in
education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming,
most of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting
Dart as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an
object, etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people
new to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is
very easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus
and buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority
of the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to
programming in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>.
I think it's much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners
instead of just using the command line. So I published a library called
hello_dart <https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that
creates a visual world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide
a way to include libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open
the hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
Download, Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in
Webstorm. Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for
schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for
students/teachers but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free
IntelliJ Community Edition could be used but that requires an additional
step to install the Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor
(has a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I
think it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

We are actually going to support 100% of the Analysis Server features, so
as long as it's in the Analysis Server, it will be in the Atom plugin :P

\o/

- bob

[Thomas Schranz]

So looking fwd to this :)

We are actually going to support 100% of the Analysis Server features, so
as long as it's in the Analysis Server, it will be in the Atom plugin :P

\o/
- bob

['Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc]

IntelliJ Community Edition is free and supports Dart.

Post by Don Olmstead
Thats absurd to say. While it would be nice for Google to have an
agreement with JetBrains like it does with Android Studio there are plenty
of plugins for different editors.
https://www.dartlang.org/tools/
Use Sublime if you want the light weight editor for your students or want
to bootstrap colleagues.

Post by Filipe Morgado
+1
Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay for
the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.
Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a
lot of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute
Eclipse+Dart plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc
is just a turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but
I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming,
most of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting
Dart as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an
object, etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new
to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very
easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to
programming in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I
think it's much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead
of just using the command line. So I published a library called
hello_dart <https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that
creates a visual world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a
way to include libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor
(has a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think
it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Don Olmstead]

My bad I thought it was free. Amazing that a simple text editor costs more
than WebStorm for personal use.

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 11:08 AM, 'Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Graham Wheeler' via Dart Misc
IntelliJ Community Edition is free and supports Dart.

Post by Don Olmstead
Thats absurd to say. While it would be nice for Google to have an
agreement with JetBrains like it does with Android Studio there are plenty
of plugins for different editors.
https://www.dartlang.org/tools/
Use Sublime if you want the light weight editor for your students or want
to bootstrap colleagues.

Post by Filipe Morgado
+1
Goodbye trying to promote Dart to my colleagues, if they have to pay for
the editor and spend 30 minutes installing/configuring it.
Dart is not an open stack anymore if it includes a paid IDE.

Post by Davy Mitchell
I totally agree - the single download was a great story and removed a
lot of barriers for getting started with Dart.
I am hoping the Dart team (or the community) will distribute
Eclipse+Dart plugin. Visiting other sites, configuring plugin downloads etc
is just a turn off for potential new Dartisans.
Cheers,
Davy

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on
the official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects
but I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in
education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming,
most of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting
Dart as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an
object, etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people
new to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is
very easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus
and buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority
of the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to
programming in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I
think it's much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead
of just using the command line. So I published a library called
hello_dart <https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that
creates a visual world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide
a way to include libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open
the hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
Download, Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in
Webstorm. Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for
schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for
students/teachers but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free
IntelliJ Community Edition could be used but that requires an additional
step to install the Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor
(has a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think
it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
--
Diving Into Dart - http://divingintodart.blogspot.co.uk/

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Kasper Peulen]

Post by Marco Jakob
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *

Would this really be a solution for your problem ? I imagine that one the
biggest pros of dart editor is, in the context you are describing, is that
Dart Editor is much easier to learn than Webstorm. I absolutely love
webstorm, but I think it is really for power users, people who are willing
to invest some time to in the end become much more productive. I don't
think Webstorm as it is, is not suited for such a course as you are
describing.

I think, if you want absolute beginners to learn Dart. I would first indeed
go for tutorials in a lightweight editor. As Webstorm is going to be the
primary dart editor, I think it would be very nice to have Webstorm
specific tutorials as well, learning people who to be productive in
webstorm with dart. But I don't think this is something for a beginners
course.


Long Term Solutions

- Making dartpad so feature rich so that it can be used for a dart
beginners course. Also, in the course you have made, I think it would be
really cool if people could do the challenges in an embedded dartpad in the
page. I'm not sure which direction dartpad is exactly going, but if dartpad
(or some other service) would have functionalities like
this: http://plnkr.co/edit/?p=preview. Would that be sufficient for such a
course ?
- I don't hear much talk about chrome dev editor lately any more. I
would guess that chrome dev editor should be able to grow so that it would
be feature wise very similar to dart editor. Or maybe the dartpad editor
could be packed into some chrome app so that you have local file acesss
and some project structure support.
- Do you know the pycharm education edition of jetbrains
? https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm-educational/ From the website:
"Many code editors, IDEs and other tools are too complex if you’re just
learning how to program. They often make you invest a serious amount of
effort and time into understanding how the tool works. PyCharm Educational
Edition is easy to get started with, not intimidating, yet powerful enough
to guide you all the way through to becoming a professional developer."
Besides that, you can also open interactive tutorials in this edition. I
think a free Dart Educational Edition from jetbrains with the same kind of
features as PyCharm Educational Edition would be quite awesome.

[Marco Jakob]

Also, in the course you have made, I think it would be really cool if
people could do the challenges in an embedded dartpad in the page. I'm not
sure which direction dartpad is exactly going, but if dartpad (or some
http://plnkr.co/edit/?p=preview
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fplnkr.co%2Fedit%2F%3Fp%3Dpreview&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGMmGo3SNqvzdtLEiXKz9d-nNTJSQ>.
Would that be sufficient for such a course ?

I agree. It would be great if I could embed or directly link to DartPad for
the exercises. Something like Plunker looks interesting.


I don't hear much talk about chrome dev editor lately any more. I would

guess that chrome dev editor should be able to grow so that it would be
feature wise very similar to dart editor.

Yes that would be a nice solution if we had Chrome Dev Editor with similar
features as Dart Editor. This would even work on a Chromebook.


I think a free Dart Educational Edition from jetbrains with the same kind

of features as PyCharm Educational Edition would be quite awesome.

I have never tried PyCharm but it looks like an interesting way to get
started.


*In general: I like it if an IDE is simple enough but still lets beginners
continue towards professional development without having to switch the IDE
multiple times.*

Post by Marco Jakob
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *

Would this really be a solution for your problem ? I imagine that one the
biggest pros of dart editor is, in the context you are describing, is that
Dart Editor is much easier to learn than Webstorm. I absolutely love
webstorm, but I think it is really for power users, people who are willing
to invest some time to in the end become much more productive. I don't
think Webstorm as it is, is not suited for such a course as you are
describing.
I think, if you want absolute beginners to learn Dart. I would first
indeed go for tutorials in a lightweight editor. As Webstorm is going to be
the primary dart editor, I think it would be very nice to have Webstorm
specific tutorials as well, learning people who to be productive in
webstorm with dart. But I don't think this is something for a beginners
course.
Possible Long Term Solutions
- Making dartpad so feature rich so that it can be used for a dart
beginners course. Also, in the course you have made, I think it would be
really cool if people could do the challenges in an embedded dartpad in the
page. I'm not sure which direction dartpad is exactly going, but if dartpad
http://plnkr.co/edit/?p=preview. Would that be sufficient for such a
course ?
- I don't hear much talk about chrome dev editor lately any more. I
would guess that chrome dev editor should be able to grow so that it would
be feature wise very similar to dart editor. Or maybe the dartpad editor
could be packed into some chrome app so that you have local file acesss
and some project structure support.
- Do you know the pycharm education edition of jetbrains ?
"Many code editors, IDEs and other tools are too complex if you’re
just learning how to program. They often make you invest a serious amount
of effort and time into understanding how the tool works. PyCharm
Educational Edition is easy to get started with, not intimidating, yet
powerful enough to guide you all the way through to becoming a professional
developer."
Besides that, you can also open interactive tutorials in this edition.
I think a free Dart Educational Edition from jetbrains with the same kind
of features as PyCharm Educational Edition would be quite awesome.

['Devon Carew' via Dart Misc]

Hey Marco, your hello-dart tutorial is pretty incredible! One of our main
goals for DartPad is to make it a good environment for learning Dart, and
we want to be sure that we have enough pieces in place to be able to build
tutorials with DartPad.

There may be some technical limitations to what we can do, but it'd be
great to talk to you and get a better sense of what some of the
requirements would be. We'll reach out to you off-list. Cheers,

Devon

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but I
see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage like
older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and even
works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the code
editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are really
difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new to
Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very easy
to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You will
have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's much
more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just using
the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has a
lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I hope
you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think it
is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Devon Carew
Software Engineer
Google, Inc.

[kc]

Is Chrome Dev Editor still under active development? What's it's status?

K.

[tomaszkubacki]

I hope Debugger in IntelliJ will be a bit more polished before axing Dart
Editor

ATM My quite big app kills debugger in IntelliJ whereas still works in Dart
Editor (IntelliJ plugin version simply does not show variable values).

What is even worse (for smaller projects which seem to work with IntelliJ
plugin) debugger does not show object graphs in Lists (you can't expand
object property if object is on other's object List).

Dear Dart team: developer experience is extremely important for Dart
success in general - hope you will take it into account before axing Dart
Editor.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Did you create a bug report in YouTrack? https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/

Post by tomaszkubacki
I hope Debugger in IntelliJ will be a bit more polished before axing Dart
Editor
ATM My quite big app kills debugger in IntelliJ whereas still works in
Dart Editor (IntelliJ plugin version simply does not show variable values).
What is even worse (for smaller projects which seem to work with IntelliJ
plugin) debugger does not show object graphs in Lists (you can't expand
object property if object is on other's object List).
Dear Dart team: developer experience is extremely important for Dart
success in general - hope you will take it into account before axing Dart
Editor.

[Kendrick Wilson]

What about the ChromeDevEditor?

https://github.com/GoogleChrome/chromedeveditor


Sublime like but free.....

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chrome-dev-editor-develop/pnoffddplpippgcfjdhbmhkofpnaalpg

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but I
see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage like
older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and even
works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the code
editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are really
difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new to
Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very easy
to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You will
have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's much
more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just using
the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has a
lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I hope
you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think it
is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!

[Marco Jakob]

A quote from Devon Carew concerning Chrome Dev Editor in another post
<https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/misc/0StxmW3V0Xs>:

The Dart team is doubling down on IntelliJ on the IDE side, and investing

in adding infrastructure that can help all IDEs and development
environments - specifically the analysis server. I myself moved over from
working on CDE to DartPad. As a dev. environment it's a lot more focused in
scope, and fills a clear need for the Dart team.
What about the ChromeDevEditor?
https://github.com/GoogleChrome/chromedeveditor
Sublime like but free.....
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chrome-dev-editor-develop/pnoffddplpippgcfjdhbmhkofpnaalpg

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but I
see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage like
older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the code
editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are really
difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new
to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very
easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You will
have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's
much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just
using the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has
a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think it
is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!

[Jack Murphy]

I'm trying to get a list together of the differences between Community
Edition & WebStorm here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/30076342/

It would be great to have a comparison matrix so people can make an
informed decision on if the paid WebStorm version is worth it.

Post by Marco Jakob
A quote from Devon Carew concerning Chrome Dev Editor in another post
The Dart team is doubling down on IntelliJ on the IDE side, and investing

in adding infrastructure that can help all IDEs and development
environments - specifically the analysis server. I myself moved over from
working on CDE to DartPad. As a dev. environment it's a lot more focused in
scope, and fills a clear need for the Dart team.
What about the ChromeDevEditor?
https://github.com/GoogleChrome/chromedeveditor
Sublime like but free.....
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/chrome-dev-editor-develop/pnoffddplpippgcfjdhbmhkofpnaalpg

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but
I see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage
like older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and
even works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the
code editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are
really difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new
to Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very
easy to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You
will have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's
much more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just
using the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has
a lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I
hope you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think
it is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!
--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Metronome]

What about building a virtual machine image with Webstorm already
installed? From a pedagogical standpoint doing things this way will
eliminate issues with installation of Dart etc. This even lends itself to
a thin client type of setup where students would simply login to a VM
running on a server somewhere and work from there. All they would need is
appropriate remote desktop software.

As for Webstorm itself, the Dart plugin probably should download and manage
a default SDK on its own as it is.

Post by Marco Jakob
As we have heard from the Dart Summit and has been communicated on the
official blog
*The DartEditor will be deprecated!*
The New Strategy
- *DartPad* to get started and to try small code snippets.
- *WebStorm *for professional Dart development.
The Problem for Starters and Education
I'm perfectly fine with using WebStorm for my professional projects but I
see a problem for people new to programming and for people in education.
I have been teaching a lot of introductory courses for programming, most
of them using Java. In the last couple of years I have been promoting Dart
as the better alternative for learners. There are a lot of advantages in
- Very clean, simple, and concise language (everything is an object,
etc.).
- Dart is a "fresh" language and doesn't have historical baggage like
older languages. This makes it so much easier for beginners.
- Can easily be deployed as web app on clients (this is big!) and even
works on the server.
- Everything is included (libraries, Pub, Editor, etc.)
- And much more...
Learning how to program is difficult and one of the obstacles is the code
editor. Big editors like Eclipse, NetBeans, and VisualStudio are really
difficult to use for someone new to programming. Editors that are
specifically tailored for education usually can't keep up with the time and
don't provide features that are expected from modern IDEs.
In my opinion, the *Dart Editor was the perfect editor *for people new to
Dart and even for people that have never programmed before. It is very easy
to install, has all the features needed and no unnecessary menus and
buttons! And it was still an Editor that could be used for professional
development.
Targetting beginners and education might not be the highest priority of
the Dart team, but if it is a priority, I see some problems with the
- *DartPad *can only be used to tinker with simple programs. You will
have to switch to a "real" IDE very soon.
- I have just created a five-part introductory course to programming
in Dart <http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/>. I think it's much
more fun to have some visual feedback for beginners instead of just using
the command line. So I published a library called hello_dart
<https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/hello_dart> that creates a visual
world. Since *DartPad *currently doesn't provide a way to include
libraries from pub, DartPad can't be used.
- Dart Editor was really easy to install: Download, Unzip, Open the
hello_dart scenarios. See my installation instructions
<http://code.makery.ch/library/hello-dart/install/>.
- Webstorm takes a few additional steps for installation: Download,
Install Webstorm, Download Dart SDK, Install SDK, Select SDK in Webstorm.
Yes, this is very relevant for beginners and especially for schools.
- There is no easy way to run Webstorm as a portable version. In
schools it's usually difficult to install new software. Dart Editor was
easy as it was only a zip folder.
- Webstorm isn't free. I know that it is free for students/teachers
but to get it is an obstacle for teachers. The free IntelliJ Community
Edition could be used but that requires an additional step to install the
Dart Plugin (in addition to the Dart SDK).
- Webstorm is nice but is much harder to learn than Dart Editor (has a
lot of menus and buttons).
Possible Solution
Well, I guess the decision has been made about Dart Editor :-(. But I hope
you can somehow provide a better experience for Dart beginners and
educators.
One solution that I see would be to provide a *free Dart Webstorm. *Ideally
a single download that includes the Dart SDK and maybe is even portable.
If we want to see adoption of Dart in schools and universities I think it
is crucial to have a very, very simple installation experience!

[David Kopec]

I tate to resurrect an old thread - but I was wondering whether there's
been any movement on this issue? The lack of an included fully integrated
IDE with the SDK download is IMHO a huge barrier to entry for learners who
are too sophisticated for DartPad but not "all-in" enough to configure a
plugin for a third party IDE. I think Dart Editor was a huge selling
point, even if it was a maintenance nightmare. I agree with all of Marco
Jakob's sentiments.

[Daniel Joyce]

Just tried out the atom editor with the dartlang plugin. Pretty nice. Just
need to find a way to add launch option when right clicking on
manifest.json. pleasantly surprised how well the analysis server works.

Post by David Kopec
I tate to resurrect an old thread - but I was wondering whether there's
been any movement on this issue? The lack of an included fully integrated
IDE with the SDK download is IMHO a huge barrier to entry for learners who
are too sophisticated for DartPad but not "all-in" enough to configure a
plugin for a third party IDE. I think Dart Editor was a huge selling
point, even if it was a maintenance nightmare. I agree with all of Marco
Jakob's sentiments.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Daniel Joyce

The meek shall inherit the Earth, for the brave will be among the stars.