[dart-misc] What Happened to Dart (2.0)?

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Dart the compiled language is supposed to come out of this transition. Do we
really need a compiled language when so many others seem to do well while
having a VM instead?

I think with WebAssembly there will be no more space for VMÂŽS in the
Browsers, it would be a waste of
time implementing the Dart VM, but many have seen it as a sign of weakness,
the interest for the language should
me much higher by now.
If we think about Google with Polymer, is probably the biggest advertiser
of TypeScript by now,even more than Microsoft.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
And that's the problem with Dart's evolution. There isn't a fixed goal in

terms

Post by Joao Pedrosa
of performance. Competitors like Java, C++, Go, JavaScript, etc have

their own

Post by Joao Pedrosa
performance goals that may make them more appealing than Dart to their
unique market niches

IÂŽm also a little bit disappointed ,but for me What makes Dart shine, is
that is a terse and isomorphic language.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
In reading discussions here on the mailing list, you may get users

surprised when Dart

Post by Joao Pedrosa
connected to a database may start to consume lots of memory as the data
queue becomes bogged down.

For me that's the worst part of Dart,not the Databases support itself,but
he lack of information,samples,and benchmarks.
ORM is heavy by default,what kind of development this people are doing?
But the drivers can be really bad,since SQL is far for being a priority for
Google itself.
Many people in Google hate Sql,and think NoSQL is the solution for
everything, at least I have this feeling.
I doubt Google uses SQL in their internal systems, even when it makes sense.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Something else that needs to be considered is that as the market shifts

to new

Post by Joao Pedrosa
technologies, even the community may lose interest in some of the

technologies

Post by Joao Pedrosa
that may be considered outdated by now. We lose those windows of

opportunity.
Could not agree more.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
We ought to consider that Google have been consistent in their adoption

of languages

Post by Joao Pedrosa
like C++, Go, Java, JavaScript, Python... Our problem with Dart is that

Dart was just

Post by Joao Pedrosa
one more in a long list of languages.

It is really strange that by in 2017 we donÂŽt have Dart listed in Google
App Engine,Ang Google Cloud Sql as supported.
But I still think that Dart is their most favorite soon,Google is just a
very difficult kind of father, that donÂŽt care much
about time, just the final results, where final can happen in 5 or 50 years.

Google should have its Google Press like Microsft Does,but I really have a
feeling that theyÂŽre not wanting to increase the users base by now,before
Dart,Polymer,and Angular reaches stability, I mean one or two versions by
year,always without backward compatibility , and people crying in the users
forums, and so on.

Marcello

Joao Pedrosa

2017-12-11 23:40:05 UTC

Hi,

I think with WebAssembly there will be no more space for VMÂŽS in the

Post by Marcello Dias
Browsers, it would be a waste of
time implementing the Dart VM, but many have seen it as a sign of
weakness, the interest for the language should
me much higher by now.

The problem for WebAssembly is that many of the browser's limitations still
apply anyway. I'm waiting for the
day that they emulate Android on WebAssembly. :-)

Post by Marcello Dias
If we think about Google with Polymer, is probably the biggest advertiser
of TypeScript by now,even more than Microsoft.

Interesting. It's not entirely surprising though. TypeScript gives than 90%
of they would need.

Post by Marcello Dias
IÂŽm also a little bit disappointed ,but for me What makes Dart shine, is
that is a terse and isomorphic language.

Notice that Google cannot commit to all kinds of platforms. Many platforms
are not core to Google's businesses.
Google sacrificed many of their own projects when some of those platforms
started going the way of the Dodo.
And for other platforms that Google is committed to, they have all of those
languages to choose from C++, JavaScript,
Go, Java, Python... As they reshuffle management, they eventually refocus
on only the platforms they care
about.

Post by Marcello Dias
For me that's the worst part of Dart,not the Databases support itself,but
he lack of information,samples,and benchmarks.
ORM is heavy by default,what kind of development this people are doing?

Probably a good amount of micro-services. Dart is good for when you have
many clients connecting to
a single server instance. Dart can help you with creating game servers. A
lot of web apps
don't need to be e-commerce and the like. If you have a web app that
changes less often, Dart could
be a good tool for it. If your app uses simple templates, for example. It
is true that Dart comes with
fewer batteries included when it comes to web apps. But you do get more
control over it, so that if
your app demands a higher level of security, you can be sure that it's only
serving what you meant it
to be. :-)

Post by Marcello Dias
But the drivers can be really bad,since SQL is far for being a priority
for Google itself.
Many people in Google hate Sql,and think NoSQL is the solution for
everything, at least I have this feeling.
I doubt Google uses SQL in their internal systems, even when it makes sense.

Databases with only pairs of key/value were meant to scale above and beyond
SQL servers. Google
mastered those databases when servicing billions of people. While Google
may have libraries that allow
SQL to be used when querying those key/value pairs databases, for them it's
just an amenity, and
the database will often be used without any SQL. On the plus side, I think,
Google can allow more
applications to connect simultaneously to those key/value pair databases.
As they don't need stored
procedures, triggers, relational data etc. Also for Google they can expand
those databases without
having to shake up the whole database data at the same time. Google can add
more columns, delete
them etc. So Google do have good reasons to avoid SQL. It's just a pity
that a lot of the world would
not need Google's level of scalability or have the resources to do it,
although Google offers those systems
as service as well.

Post by Marcello Dias
It is really strange that by in 2017 we donÂŽt have Dart listed in Google
App Engine,Ang Google Cloud Sql as supported.
But I still think that Dart is their most favorite soon,Google is just a
very difficult kind of father, that donÂŽt care much
about time, just the final results, where final can happen in 5 or 50 years.

I think it's a good thing that Google have the resources to invest in
things like Dart. It's just as they
say that the world has more problems than Google can solve at any one time.
:-)

Post by Marcello Dias
Google should have its Google Press like Microsft Does,but I really have a
feeling that theyÂŽre not wanting to increase the users base by now,before
Dart,Polymer,and Angular reaches stability, I mean one or two versions by
year,always without backward compatibility , and people crying in the users
forums, and so on.

One difficulty is indeed in how to evolve tough systems without breaking
backward compatibility all the time.
Given how hard it is, they may avoid doing some interim releases that would
break everything with every
new release. Not even them may be able to control the churn. :-)

That's another reason for why we get a delayed Dart 2.0.

Cheers,
Joao

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'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

2017-12-11 20:56:33 UTC

We're hard at work on it! :D

It turns out that making a language's static type system more strict after
it's been shipped and has millions of lines of code we need to support is a
*lot* of work. :)

Also, we're moving towards a unified single front end shared across our
various implementations. (That way, the VM, analyzer, dart2js, and DDC
don't all each to re-implement the new type system from scratch.)

Those are both pretty ambitious technical projects, so it's keeping us
pretty busy. We also have a large number of internal customers to keep
happy, bugs to fix, etc.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
In summary, Dart has tried to morph from being a language centered around
a VM like many before (like Java) to being one that can exist in the absence
of a VM always backing it up.
Dart the compiled language is supposed to come out of this transition. Do we
really need a compiled language when so many others seem to do well while
having a VM instead?

I don't know if "VM" is the best lens to use to understand the change
between 1.x and 2.0. There are a few major aspects of the platform I think
are important here:

- *The runtime.* This is the code you need to support the language's
semantics while it's running. For Dart, it's mainly a garbage collector,
the dispatch information needed to support polymorphism, and the runtime
type information needed for things like "is" checks.

- *The compilation model.* On the end user's machine, is a program
loaded and run from source (JS)? Does the developer compile it to an
intermediate representation like bytecode which is loaded on the end user's
machine and then finally compiled to machine code (Java, C#)? Or does the
developer compile it all the way straight to machine code ahead of time (C,
Go)?

- *The static type system.* Do the types provide enough information for
an ahead-of-time compile to generate efficient code without access to the
concrete types flowing through the program at runtime? Do users expect to
find most of their errors statically in an IDE, or by debugging at runtime?
Which type checks are done statically and which are done at runtime?

Dart's runtime needs are basically unchanged between 1.x and 2.0. We're
still GCed, and still have type info and type checks at runtime. Whether
that runtime lives inside a VM (like the JVM) or is compiled into the
user's application (like Go or OCaml) is more or less an implementation
detail.

Our compilation model has always been more complex than most other
languages. Dart has *always* been an ahead-of-time statically-compiled
language. That's what dart2js does when compiling to JS, and that's the
compilation target almost all shipped applications used until Flutter
appeared. But Dart has always *always* been a run-from-source interpreted
language using the VM. That's what you got when you used Dartium, or when
you write command-line apps on the VM.

The creators of Dart hoped to get the Dart VM shipped in browsers, so they
were more personally invested in that latter strategy than the former. In
many ways, the design of the language reflects that. (That is, for example,
why Dart 1.0 does not do type inference for local variables. Because you'd
have to run that inference at runtime when the user's application loads,
which could be slow.)

With the decision to not put the VM in Chrome, *all* Dart applications will
go through some build step before running on an end user's machine. During
a developer's *iteration loop*, it's useful to be able to hot reload and
run from source, but a shipped Dart app is a compiled Dart app.

That changes the forces pushing on the language. Features that require more
static analysis work in the front end are more acceptable because there is
a compile step where we can do that work. That's why you're seeing more
type inference in 2.0. At the same time, stricter type analysis gives an
ahead-of-time compiler more guarantees it can rely on about the meaning of
the code, which helps generate efficient, small code without access to the
dynamic profiling information a JIT has.

Our performance targets for Dart are based mainly around making it a great
platform for interactive client mobile apps (i.e. Flutter users and web
users). This means that compared to say, a server language, where peak
throughput of a long-running process is the main benchmark, we care a lot
about:

- *Application start up time.* A JIT takes a while to warm up and
optimize the user's code. Mobile app users don't want the app to hobble
along for the first couple of seconds. It needs to instantly start running
and respond quickly.

- *Latency.* When the user sends an input, the app needs to process it
and respond immediately. If they are dragging and scrolling on a
touchscreen device, it needs to respond *very fast* in order to maintain
the illusion that they have tactile control over the UI.

- *Overall performance and battery usage.* The faster the language runs,
the more features and user experience developers can pack into it. Even for
a fixed application, greater efficiency means longer batter life, which
matters deeply for many users.

- *Code size.* Code is generally a relatively small fraction of the
overall app size (media tends to take up more space), but it does matter in
places where network connectivity is low or expensive. It matters deeply on
the web where the application is downloaded on each use (ignoring things
like PWA for the moment). Code size also impacts performance because of
things like cache pressure and locality concerns
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPU_cache>.

There's a lot of other stuff I could go into about things like modularity,
incremental compilation, the user experience around static types, etc. but
hopefully that gives a little view into how at least some of us on the team
are thinking about this.

Cheers!

â bob

Ryan Gonzalez

2017-12-11 22:31:49 UTC

From the perspective of a random person on the sidelines, it's more of an
issue due to the JS target and Flutter.

After the Dart VM failed at getting merged into major browsers, JS
compilation became the main goal. With a Dart oriented more towards static
typing and compilation, it's possible to keep Dart's nicer semantics while
compiling to more efficient JavaScript. Things like DDC wouldn't even be
possible without the compilation focus.

On the Flutter end: a VM can run on mobile devices, but it's always going
to be "just a little slower" than the native target/native VM. e.g. on
Android, Dart could run using the VM, but it's inevitably going to be
slower than AOT compilation. The fact that Android uses a (not "the") JVM
has historically been a big performance issue that's only more recently
fixed thanks to the transition from Dalvik to ART. ART also now AOT
compiles apps anyway.

On the iOS side of Flutter, it's not even possible to have JITs on Apple
devices, so without AOT compilation, running Dart on iOS would literally be
impossible.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
And that's the problem with Dart's evolution. There isn't a
fixed goal in terms
of performance. Competitors like Java, C++, Go, JavaScript, etc
have their own
performance goals that may make them more appealing than Dart to their
unique market niches. So for example, if performance meant to use as little
memory as possible, maybe an alternative to Dart would fair a
bit better. In reading
discussions here on the mailing list, you may get users surprised when Dart
connected to a database may start to consume lots of memory as the data
queue becomes bogged down. Then you may have to try to pause it to keep the
memory use lower.

Well, Dart's performance is pretty much equivalent to or better than other
interpreted languages with garbage collectors. Stuff like this happens all
the time in the JS world, too.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Laziness brings a certain level of unpredictableness first
experienced in languages
like Haskell. So the challenges facing Dart with async and so
on are not new. And
languages that are different to Dart may help with making
things more predictable
at the cost of making them less lazy by default.

AFAIK Dart's async is pretty similar to e.g. C#'s and Python's, so I'm not
quite sure what about that is inherently bad...

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Some other issue with performance is that computation used to
calculated things
for billions of people deserves an approach that works for
those extreme scenarios.
Google have systems that have been proved to work for billions
of people, so when
they create libraries, languages etc they may have as a
priority to connect to those
large scalability systems. And even then, as they try to phase
out some of their
systems that have been deprecated, they may not connect to
nearly all of their
systems anyways. Plus, they may avoid repeating themselves too much when
connecting to their systems to try to reduce their maintenance
burden in making
their systems more profitable. So for example if Go is great
for something they do
already, they may avoid using Dart for that as well.
Dart's improvements come after all those kinds of considerations.
Something else that needs to be considered is that as the
market shifts to new
technologies, even the community may lose interest in some of
the technologies
that may be considered outdated by now. We lose those windows
of opportunity.
We ought to consider that Google have been consistent in their
adoption of languages
like C++, Go, Java, JavaScript, Python... Our problem with Dart
is that Dart was just
one more in a long list of languages.

Well, Google is also a big company filled with dozens of different teams,
not a hivemind. It's easy to think (and I'm not saying this is response to
you necessarily, just as a response to a general attitude I see sometimes)
that Google can do everything because they're big and loaded. But, in
reality, developers still have to dedicate time to these projects, and
throwing more people/money at something won't necessarily make it better.

So, it's hard to say that Dart's adoption has been inconsistent, when in
reality, internally, Google itself is pretty inconsistent. (I mean, they
have *how* many messaging apps for Android now? Messages, Allo, Hangouts,
YouTube (!)...) Not that that's a bad thing; it's just what happens when
you have a huge corporation filled with people with similar ambitions but
drastically different ideas as for how to reach those ambitions.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Cheers,
Joao
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Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
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Joao Pedrosa

2017-12-11 23:17:46 UTC

Hi,

After the Dart VM failed at getting merged into major browsers, JS

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
compilation became the main goal. With a Dart oriented more towards static
typing and compilation, it's possible to keep Dart's nicer semantics while
compiling to more efficient JavaScript. Things like DDC wouldn't even be
possible without the compilation focus.

Following some of the discussions on the Github Dart issues, it seems as
though adding
types has added a further level of runtime to the JavaScript side of
things. I.e. more performance
penalty before they can work on reducing it. There was always the hope that
Dart to JavaScript
would be more optimized though, but given their differences in semantics,
it's not always possible
to do so. TypeScript gets away with it because TypeScript "erases" a lot of
stuff at runtime as code
gets converted to pure JavaScript. Dart is different in that regard. It's
not clear how Dart can become
just like TypeScript.

The JavaScript side of Dart seems to be under maintenance. As they focus on
Flutter and the like.
While they may get a finer grained level of control in Dart's other modes
with VM, AoT etc, they still
carry their own burden with them too.

So far, the clearer JavaScript code of DDC seems to have been missing in
appeal for the community
to move to it. Officially they mean the DDC as a debugging tool.

Again a lot of the wishful thinking regarding Dart is that eventually it
would match the performance
of the targeted platforms. It's just a tough job to get it there. On iOS
Dart may use an interpreter
instead to get around the JIT issue. Even AoT may have a little bit of JIT
left in the runtime.

Often Dart did well with the VM. Looks as though we will never know for
sure now that the
focus has changed. The VM may be 5 years old or more already. :-)

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
AFAIK Dart's async is pretty similar to e.g. C#'s and Python's, so I'm not
quite sure what about that is inherently bad...

The difference is that in C# they have all kinds of features at the same
time so that you don't need
to use async if you don't want to. Whereas in Dart it is front and center,
like in Haskell in some ways.
Notice that in Go they get concurrency with less laziness built into their
system, and many users
swear by Go's performance. And they may be even happier when it comes to
predictability. The
caveat is that Dart needed to be the way it is due to having to support
JavaScript and the browser.

The truth is in the pudding as they say and it is unfortunate that Dart's
unique features hasn't attracted
a larger community. We get even Dart developers themselves complaining
about having to commit
to Async all the way when they sometimes would wish to have code work with
or without Async. :-)

Cheers,
Joao

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Ryan Gonzalez

2017-12-11 23:35:00 UTC

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
Hi,
After the Dart VM failed at getting merged into major browsers,
JS compilation became the main goal. With a Dart oriented more
towards static typing and compilation, it's possible to keep
Dart's nicer semantics while compiling to more efficient
JavaScript. Things like DDC wouldn't even be possible without
the compilation focus.
Following some of the discussions on the Github Dart issues, it
seems as though adding
types has added a further level of runtime to the JavaScript
side of things. I.e. more performance
penalty before they can work on reducing it. There was always
the hope that Dart to JavaScript
would be more optimized though, but given their differences in
semantics, it's not always possible
to do so. TypeScript gets away with it because TypeScript
"erases" a lot of stuff at runtime as code
gets converted to pure JavaScript. Dart is different in that
regard. It's not clear how Dart can become
just like TypeScript.
The JavaScript side of Dart seems to be under maintenance. As
they focus on Flutter and the like.
While they may get a finer grained level of control in Dart's
other modes with VM, AoT etc, they still
carry their own burden with them too.
So far, the clearer JavaScript code of DDC seems to have been
missing in appeal for the community
to move to it. Officially they mean the DDC as a debugging tool.

Wasn't that part of the whole intention though? Required Dart -> ES6 -> ES5
was never going to be practical. DDC felt to me like the "in-between",
since without Dartium you lost a much better debugging experience that DDC
can help bring back.

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
On the Flutter end: a VM can run on mobile devices, but it's
always going to be "just a little slower" than the native
target/native VM. e.g. on Android, Dart could run using the VM,
but it's inevitably going to be slower than AOT compilation. The
fact that Android uses a (not "the") JVM has historically been a
big performance issue that's only more recently fixed thanks to
the transition from Dalvik to ART. ART also now AOT compiles
apps anyway.
On the iOS side of Flutter, it's not even possible to have JITs
on Apple devices, so without AOT compilation, running Dart on
iOS would literally be impossible.
Again a lot of the wishful thinking regarding Dart is that
eventually it would match the performance
of the targeted platforms. It's just a tough job to get it
there. On iOS Dart may use an interpreter
instead to get around the JIT issue. Even AoT may have a little
bit of JIT left in the runtime.

Well, raw interpreting is never going to be as fast as either AOT or
JITting, and since Apple doesn't allow JITs, there's not much an other
option there...

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
Well, Dart's performance is pretty much equivalent to or better
than other interpreted languages with garbage collectors. Stuff
like this happens all the time in the JS world, too.
Often Dart did well with the VM. Looks as though we will never
know for sure now that the
focus has changed. The VM may be 5 years old or more already. :-)
AFAIK Dart's async is pretty similar to e.g. C#'s and Python's,
so I'm not quite sure what about that is inherently bad...
The difference is that in C# they have all kinds of features at
the same time so that you don't need
to use async if you don't want to. Whereas in Dart it is front
and center, like in Haskell in some ways.
Notice that in Go they get concurrency with less laziness built
into their system, and many users
swear by Go's performance. And they may be even happier when it
comes to predictability. The
caveat is that Dart needed to be the way it is due to having to
support JavaScript and the browser.
The truth is in the pudding as they say and it is unfortunate
that Dart's unique features hasn't attracted
a larger community. We get even Dart developers themselves
complaining about having to commit
to Async all the way when they sometimes would wish to have
code work with or without Async. :-)
Cheers,
Joao
Livre de vírus. www.avast.com.

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Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
https://refi64.com/

Marcello Dias

2017-12-12 00:28:51 UTC

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Databases with only pairs of key/value were meant to scale above and

beyond SQL servers. Google

Post by Joao Pedrosa
mastered those databases when servicing billions of people. While Google

may have libraries that allow

Post by Joao Pedrosa
SQL to be used when querying those key/value pairs databases, for them

it's just an amenity, and

Post by Joao Pedrosa
the database will often be used without any SQL. On the plus side, I

think, Google can allow more

Post by Joao Pedrosa
applications to connect simultaneously to those key/value pair

databases. As they don't need stored

Post by Joao Pedrosa
procedures, triggers, relational data etc. Also for Google they can

expand those databases without

Post by Joao Pedrosa
having to shake up the whole database data at the same time. Google can

add more columns, delete

Post by Joao Pedrosa
them etc. So Google do have good reasons to avoid SQL. It's just a pity

that a lot of the world would

Post by Joao Pedrosa
not need Google's level of scalability or have the resources to do it,

although Google offers those systems

Post by Joao Pedrosa
as service as well.

The question is, if they think NOSQL is good for ERP by example,give us an
user case, if donÂŽt, say donÂŽt use for it,if they provided a Postgresql
make the best PostGreSql ever made.
This is what I like in Microsoft,theyÂŽre very opinionated of how you should
use their products, They never stand above the wall, they canÂŽt be the most
creative company in the world,but they never let you in the middle of the
ocean pacific with a boat sinking,and just say "Sorry,weÂŽll come back in
two years,but we realize we should have crafted a more resilient
boat".ThatÂŽs how I feel about a Japanese Guy who was developing an ERP with
Dart and Polymer some years ago, i have never hear about him anymore.
I think thats why theyÂŽre not caring about makink Dart Mainstream right now.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
One difficulty is indeed in how to evolve tough systems without breaking

backward compatibility all the time.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Given how hard it is, they may avoid doing some interim releases that

would break everything with every

Post by Joao Pedrosa
new release. Not even them may be able to control the churn. :-)

But them they would not have our feedback.

Marcello

Kenneth Endfinger

2017-12-12 03:53:47 UTC

Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was more
sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to create
that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.

Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's going
to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going to
keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.

But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of which I
have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting people,
and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.

seb mitchell

2017-12-12 07:38:27 UTC

As I recall being an interested observer, waiting for dart to be available
in chrome.

Getting the dart vm into chrome had to wait on the Oilpan project.
Oilpan - replacement of reference counting in Blink with a GC.

Unfortunately it took longer than expected and
after ~18 months and with oilpan still not in production the goal of a Dart
vm in chrome ended.

Samuel Schwebel

2017-12-12 10:40:51 UTC

Hi Kenneth,

I am curious. What was the alternative to Dartlang that you found to fill
your passion?

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was more
sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to create
that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going to
keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of which I
have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting people,
and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Kenneth Endfinger

2017-12-12 19:36:48 UTC

I had a period of time where I was into C++, then I went on to writing my
own operating system in C. I think, at least for me, Dart filled all the
gaps as a language, but the platform was lacking. I've been all over the
place
with language and platforms since, and I feel like it made me realize that
you don't have to be tied down to one platform, you can just use whatever
platform is best for the job at hand.

Post by Samuel Schwebel
Hi Kenneth,
I am curious. What was the alternative to Dartlang that you found to fill
your passion?

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was
more sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to create
that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going to
keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of which
I have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting
people, and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Marcello Dias

2017-12-12 11:49:02 UTC

I remember something between 2012-2013,people used to talk about Dart as
multi purpose language,exactly
what its becoming now,with Flutter,Dartino,Angular.dart,but it took from
2013-2016 until we have something useful
to construct the UI,if we remember Polymer was the biggest bet.
But I think React was a real life punch in the face,javascript programmers
were not a serious audience for a stronged
typed language,Google could make a even better language, I understand all
that,a change in the root was needed.
What I donÂŽt understand is that the third richest company in the world,that
has everything to become the first,can concentrate
only in the client side, that they donÂŽt care of the users base size.
As Joao Pedrosa said,Dart really lost a window of opportunity.
Without the community we would have just nothing to use in the server side.
TheyÂŽre waiting for the community to solve ervery single piece of the
puzzle?
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?
This is my question,but the community may have another thousands.
People donÂŽt like to be Guinea pigs,when and if Google wants Dart to be
mainstream,it should do something itself to show the world,dissecate ervery
little piece of the stack they used, as Microsoft does.
I used to think that Google would do whatever it takes to make Dart the
next big thing,after Java and .NET.

Marcello

seb mitchell

2017-12-12 13:42:01 UTC

Post by Marcello Dias
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?

Fuchsia OS
Armadillo is currently the default system UI for Fuchsia. Armadillo is
written in Flutter.
https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui#fuchsia-system-ui

We just have to wait to see what google's plans are for fuchsia, but it
seems that with the choice of Flutter,
Dart is an important part of the project.

In Fuchsia there is a lot of stuff is also written in go and there is Xi
editor which is written in rust with a Flutter ui.
https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/xi

Seb

Jonathan Rezende

2017-12-12 14:02:40 UTC

I chose Dart because I don't want to develop in javascript anymore and I
want the same language on server and client side.
I want to share libs between front, server and mobile. Do complex and
generic stuff that can be used to create any kind of application.
So I like Dart... it has so much potential!

However, to develop in Dart you must have a patient of an old lady taking
care of her garden...
You have to dig the packages to understand what a package can do because
there are minimal docs about it. Even official like angular_components, you
have to dig the files to understand it capabilities and exceptions.
You have to fork the packages you need to use because they are old and not
maintained anymore. Some use mirrors or are not in strong mode etc.
Even MongoDB package that is a NoSQL DB lacks a lot of stuff. I had to dig
the files, understand it's concept, then create the command I needed. For
example, you can't set the collation/encoding of the find command. That is
needed to be able to sort stuff with diacritics. I think that it is quite
basic stuff when you develop something to be used outside english, right?

So, you must really like Dart to develop with it...
Well, for now I do like it =]
And of course, I hope things gets better with Dart 2.0.

Post by seb mitchell

Post by Marcello Dias
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?

I don't know, but Aqueduct has support for "PostgreSQL ORM"
"Aqueduct is a server-side framework for building and deploying
multi-threaded REST applications"
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/aqueduct
Here are some ramblings, I'm not doing any dev work, just been interested
in dart's progress.
The Dartino project has been discontinued.
With regards to Flutter -
As you probably know the flutter/sky team started with javascript, tried
some other stuff before giving Dart a go.
Flutter's hot reload was an idea that original came from the dart team,
based on the way dart language is structured and
the way the runtime works, the Dart team built a prototype. Reaction from
flutter team "wow this is amazing".
So it seems that Flutter going with Dart has made the Dart team very busy.
If you aren't across Flutter and have some spare cycles then VoidRealms on
youtube has a great series,
covers dart in the first 18 episode, and he is now up to working on flutter.
http://youtu.be/R3BmhTFr1sA
cw92esraiIBi&index=19
Fuchsia OS
Armadillo is currently the default system UI for Fuchsia. Armadillo is
written in Flutter.
https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/sysui#fuchsia-system-ui
We just have to wait to see what google's plans are for fuchsia, but it
seems that with the choice of Flutter,
Dart is an important part of the project.
In Fuchsia there is a lot of stuff is also written in go and there is Xi
editor which is written in rust with a Flutter ui.
https://github.com/fuchsia-mirror/xi
Seb
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For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
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Randal L. Schwartz

2017-12-12 17:33:02 UTC

Jonathan> So, you must really like Dart to develop with it...
Jonathan> Well, for now I do like it =]
Jonathan> And of course, I hope things gets better with Dart 2.0.

To me, the Dart 2.0 transition feels a lot like the transition from Perl
4 to Perl 5 in the early 90s. Perl 4 was useful, but Perl 5 introduced
an object system that scaled practical Perl programs from hundreds of
lines to hundreds of *thousands* of lines. And with that, we got the
interactive web and e-commerce, and eventually www on the side of a bus.

I'm all-in on Dart/Flutter. It feels like a similar time to me,
including the same anxiety as on the Perl 4 to 5 transition. I'm hoping
to use my experience of putting Perl on the map to do the same with
Dart/Flutter. I see soooo much potential, and have the practical
experience with marketing and training and building a buzz.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<***@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/Dart consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
Still trying to think of something clever for the fourth line of this .sig

m***@forsterfamily.ca

2017-12-13 01:54:34 UTC

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 11:33:14 AM UTC-6, Randal L. Schwartz

[...] I'm all-in on Dart/Flutter. [...] I see soooo much potential [...]

Alain Ekambi

2017-12-13 02:22:19 UTC

Google had a solution long time ago and it was called GWT. I guess the
situation with Oracle and too much money so that thy can work on new stuff
make them try Dart. The momentum around Dart is just super low, so we went
back to GWT.

Post by m***@forsterfamily.ca
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 11:33:14 AM UTC-6, Randal L. Schwartz

[...] I'm all-in on Dart/Flutter. [...] I see soooo much potential [...]

Same here. Having seen things come and go for 30 years, I find none of
this disconcerting. There's Dart code to be written, and I'll write
whatever I need.
Mike Forster
--
Director, Development & Technical Support
Outdoor Box Office - Event Staff Canada Ltd.
Provider of AuthentiGATEâ¢ - everyone counts
www.authentigate.ca
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Alain Ekambi

Co-Founder

AhomÃ© Innovation Technologies

http://www.ahome-it.com/ <http://ahome-it.com/>

Kenneth Endfinger

2017-12-12 19:55:26 UTC

You bring up a good point.
I've always been convinced that the server/command-line of Dart is largely
existent so that the package manager and the other tools can exist.
I worked to make Dart be more suitable for systems programming, but I was
very disappointed by the facilities that are afforded to doing so. (syscall
project on GitHub <https://github.com/DirectMyFile/syscall>)

Dart on the server-side has very coupled implementations of just the things
necessary to run pub, which I would say is the biggest user of dart:io.
Dart would REALLY shine on the server-side if they implemented a dart:ffi
so that I can call any native function I want.

Also, Google seems very uninterested in promoting Dart to the public.
Obviously the Dart Team (all of whom, again, I admire for their work) wants
it to be promoted more.
Microsoft for example is willing to invest a lot into their .NET platform,
for things they don't necessarily benefit from.
A lot of Dart improvements and advancements are driven directly from
internal usage, and I think that causes some problems
in the Open Source world.

Post by Marcello Dias
I remember something between 2012-2013,people used to talk about Dart as
multi purpose language,exactly
what its becoming now,with Flutter,Dartino,Angular.dart,but it took from
2013-2016 until we have something useful
to construct the UI,if we remember Polymer was the biggest bet.
But I think React was a real life punch in the face,javascript programmers
were not a serious audience for a stronged
typed language,Google could make a even better language, I understand all
that,a change in the root was needed.
What I donÂŽt understand is that the third richest company in the
world,that has everything to become the first,can concentrate
only in the client side, that they donÂŽt care of the users base size.
As Joao Pedrosa said,Dart really lost a window of opportunity.
Without the community we would have just nothing to use in the server side.
TheyÂŽre waiting for the community to solve ervery single piece of the
puzzle?
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?
This is my question,but the community may have another thousands.
People donÂŽt like to be Guinea pigs,when and if Google wants Dart to be
mainstream,it should do something itself to show the world,dissecate ervery
little piece of the stack they used, as Microsoft does.
I used to think that Google would do whatever it takes to make Dart the
next big thing,after Java and .NET.
Marcello

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was
more sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to create
that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going to
keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of which
I have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting
people, and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Matan Lurey

2017-12-12 20:44:20 UTC

Some replies inline.

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
You bring up a good point.
I've always been convinced that the server/command-line of Dart is largely
existent so that the package manager and the other tools can exist.

That's largely true, there isn't significant effort being put into this.

From my perspective there are already great platforms for writing
systems/tooling code (Python, Go, comes to mind), and trying to replicate
those platforms just to be able to write in Dart doesn't seem like a
high-impact project.

That being said, there are a large number of successful command-line users
of Dart:
* The static analyzer
* The formatter
* Package manager
* Build system
* Flutter CLI

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
I worked to make Dart be more suitable for systems programming, but I was
very disappointed by the facilities that are afforded to doing so. (syscall
project on GitHub <https://github.com/DirectMyFile/syscall>)
Dart on the server-side has very coupled implementations of just the
things necessary to run pub, which I would say is the biggest user of
dart:io.
Dart would REALLY shine on the server-side if they implemented a dart:ffi
so that I can call any native function I want.
Also, Google seems very uninterested in promoting Dart to the public.
Obviously the Dart Team (all of whom, again, I admire for their work)
wants it to be promoted more.
Microsoft for example is willing to invest a lot into their .NET platform,
for things they don't necessarily benefit from.
A lot of Dart improvements and advancements are driven directly from
internal usage, and I think that causes some problems
in the Open Source world.

Sure, there is some friction, but ultimately its important to have platform
improvements driven from at least *some* concrete users. Increasingly those
users are Flutter users - externally - so I'd imagine you'll start to see
more external buzz and feedback.

Post by Kenneth Endfinger

Post by Marcello Dias
I remember something between 2012-2013,people used to talk about Dart as
multi purpose language,exactly
what its becoming now,with Flutter,Dartino,Angular.dart,but it took from
2013-2016 until we have something useful
to construct the UI,if we remember Polymer was the biggest bet.
But I think React was a real life punch in the face,javascript
programmers were not a serious audience for a stronged
typed language,Google could make a even better language, I understand all
that,a change in the root was needed.
What I donÂŽt understand is that the third richest company in the
world,that has everything to become the first,can concentrate
only in the client side, that they donÂŽt care of the users base size.
As Joao Pedrosa said,Dart really lost a window of opportunity.
Without the community we would have just nothing to use in the server side.
TheyÂŽre waiting for the community to solve ervery single piece of the
puzzle?
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?
This is my question,but the community may have another thousands.
People donÂŽt like to be Guinea pigs,when and if Google wants Dart to be
mainstream,it should do something itself to show the world,dissecate ervery
little piece of the stack they used, as Microsoft does.
I used to think that Google would do whatever it takes to make Dart the
next big thing,after Java and .NET.
Marcello

Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was
more sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to
create that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going to
keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of which
I have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting
people, and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Marcello Dias

2017-12-12 21:56:46 UTC

Matan Lurey said

Post by Matan Lurey

Post by Matan Lurey
From my perspective there are already great platforms for writing

systems/tooling code (Python, Go, comes to mind), and trying to replicate
those platforms just to be able to write in >>Dart doesn't seem like a
high-impact project.>>

No,no.ð¥ð¥Thats why many of us got interested in the language,if i can
write everything ,everywhere using only Dart,Than Dart
will be just another language,I don want to write anything in Python,or
Go,if it is the new philosophy of the Language,seems very different than
2012, so C# well be probably better for me.
Well, it was just me that took Dart as the highlander of the programming
languages?
You're right that we don want to replicate them,we want Dart to be better
than theyÅe.

Marcello

Post by Matan Lurey
Some replies inline.

Post by Matan Lurey
You bring up a good point.
I've always been convinced that the server/command-line of Dart is
largely existent so that the package manager and the other tools can exist.

That's largely true, there isn't significant effort being put into this.
From my perspective there are already great platforms for writing
systems/tooling code (Python, Go, comes to mind), and trying to replicate
those platforms just to be able to write in Dart doesn't seem like a
high-impact project.
That being said, there are a large number of successful command-line users
* The static analyzer
* The formatter
* Package manager
* Build system
* Flutter CLI

Post by Matan Lurey
I worked to make Dart be more suitable for systems programming, but I was
very disappointed by the facilities that are afforded to doing so. (syscall
project on GitHub <https://github.com/DirectMyFile/syscall>)
Dart on the server-side has very coupled implementations of just the
things necessary to run pub, which I would say is the biggest user of
dart:io.
Dart would REALLY shine on the server-side if they implemented a dart:ffi
so that I can call any native function I want.
Also, Google seems very uninterested in promoting Dart to the public.
Obviously the Dart Team (all of whom, again, I admire for their work)
wants it to be promoted more.
Microsoft for example is willing to invest a lot into their .NET
platform, for things they don't necessarily benefit from.
A lot of Dart improvements and advancements are driven directly from
internal usage, and I think that causes some problems
in the Open Source world.

Sure, there is some friction, but ultimately its important to have
platform improvements driven from at least *some* concrete users.
Increasingly those users are Flutter users - externally - so I'd imagine
you'll start to see more external buzz and feedback.

Post by Matan Lurey

Post by Marcello Dias
I remember something between 2012-2013,people used to talk about Dart as
multi purpose language,exactly
what its becoming now,with Flutter,Dartino,Angular.dart,but it took
from 2013-2016 until we have something useful
to construct the UI,if we remember Polymer was the biggest bet.
But I think React was a real life punch in the face,javascript
programmers were not a serious audience for a stronged
typed language,Google could make a even better language, I understand
all that,a change in the root was needed.
What I donÂŽt understand is that the third richest company in the
world,that has everything to become the first,can concentrate
only in the client side, that they donÂŽt care of the users base size.
As Joao Pedrosa said,Dart really lost a window of opportunity.
Without the community we would have just nothing to use in the server side.
TheyÂŽre waiting for the community to solve ervery single piece of the
puzzle?
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?
This is my question,but the community may have another thousands.
People donÂŽt like to be Guinea pigs,when and if Google wants Dart to be
mainstream,it should do something itself to show the world,dissecate ervery
little piece of the stack they used, as Microsoft does.
I used to think that Google would do whatever it takes to make Dart the
next big thing,after Java and .NET.
Marcello

Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was
more sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to
create that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going
to keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of
which I have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting
people, and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Frank Rollpin

2017-12-17 17:19:22 UTC

Post by Matan Lurey
Some replies inline.
...
From my perspective there are already great platforms for writing
systems/tooling code (Python, Go, comes to mind), and trying to replicate
those platforms just to be able to write in Dart doesn't seem like a
high-impact project....

Looks like Google is positioning Dart as a technology for developing
user-facing applications (web, Flutter), but those applications don't exist
in a vacuum - most of them have a server on the other side, and the ability
to easily share the codebase is a killer feature. Having a solid foundation
on a server side will benefit the ecosystem a lot, and will attract more
developers. Just look at this topic where people confessed that they really
wanted to use Dart, but had to give up on it because of the lack of the
database drivers.

Having said that, after using Dart on the server side for few years I do
think that even with the lack of the database drivers, the server story of
the Dart is pretty damn good, which is a testament to the brilliance of the
team behind it. Yes, a lot can be improved (db drivers, better support for
the Google App Engine, etc), but even in the state it is now, it gives us
unique advantages over using other technologies that do not let you share
code between server and client sides. I surely hope people on the Dart team
recognize this strength and build further on it, rather than giving away
server side to Python/Go.

Marcello Dias

2017-12-18 11:13:59 UTC

Frank Rollpin

was totally right in every word he said.

adding my0.5 cents

Im really happy with the the things this new Dart team(I mean Dart team
seems to have changed completely since the 2012 configuration,they were
also fantastic), the type system,the UI that was abandoned between
2012-2015, better communication.

But it seems the new team are "too UI focused" we should never forget the
initial Dart promisses;A ISomorphic language.

In fact ,just seeing that Dart is the heart of Fucsia,show that Google
still believe in the isomorphic nature of Dart,but this should be in every
speech, so the world never forgets

the initial goals of the language,unless i got it totally wrong at that
time.

Looks like Google is positioning Dart as a technology for developing
user-facing applications (web, Flutter), but those applications don't exist
in a vacuum - most of them have a server on the other side, and the ability
to easily share the codebase is a killer feature. Having a solid foundation
on a server side will benefit the ecosystem a lot, and will attract more
developers. Just look at this topic where people confessed that they really
wanted to use Dart, but had to give up on it because of the lack of the
database drivers.
Having said that, after using Dart on the server side for few years I do
think that even with the lack of the database drivers, the server story of
the Dart is pretty damn good, which is a testament to the brilliance of the
team behind it. Yes, a lot can be improved (db drivers, better support for
the Google App Engine, etc), but even in the state it is now, it gives us
unique advantages over using other technologies that do not let you share
code between server and client sides. I surely hope people on the Dart team
recognize this strength and build further on it, rather than giving away
server side to Python/Go.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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Marcello Dias

2017-12-18 11:41:28 UTC

REgards to Dart popularity,and popularity matters,because of jobs,and the
language livelihood.
I thinking Dart will have an exponential growth in the coming years.
I was probably he biggest complainer about the UI abandon ware
state(specially POlimer.Dart), some years ago,but we are
living in a very difficult time ,nobody now where this "PWA vs Native war"
will going to end, Polymer
have had a really hard time,up to now, i don't really know what will be the
face of Dart in the WEB,Angular,
Angular using POlymer,POlymer itself, Flutter?
Today I don't even know all the advantages of PWA over native,or how can
Flutter can be smarter than old
executables,so I can decide what path to follow to develop my systems.
When writing a new version of a system,people look for answers not
questions,so I think this is a very hard time
to adopt new technologies.
I think Google should expand more with some Dart technologies,but I have to
recognize that I was never so confident in
Dart future like today,due to Google'Å commitment to it.

Post by Marcello Dias
Frank Rollpin
was totally right in every word he said.
adding my0.5 cents
Im really happy with the the things this new Dart team(I mean Dart team
seems to have changed completely since the 2012 configuration,they were
also fantastic), the type system,the UI that was abandoned between
2012-2015, better communication.
But it seems the new team are "too UI focused" we should never forget the
initial Dart promisses;A ISomorphic language.
In fact ,just seeing that Dart is the heart of Fucsia,show that Google
still believe in the isomorphic nature of Dart,but this should be in every
speech, so the world never forgets
the initial goals of the language,unless i got it totally wrong at that
time.

Looks like Google is positioning Dart as a technology for developing
user-facing applications (web, Flutter), but those applications don't exist
in a vacuum - most of them have a server on the other side, and the ability
to easily share the codebase is a killer feature. Having a solid foundation
on a server side will benefit the ecosystem a lot, and will attract more
developers. Just look at this topic where people confessed that they really
wanted to use Dart, but had to give up on it because of the lack of the
database drivers.
Having said that, after using Dart on the server side for few years I do
think that even with the lack of the database drivers, the server story of
the Dart is pretty damn good, which is a testament to the brilliance of the
team behind it. Yes, a lot can be improved (db drivers, better support for
the Google App Engine, etc), but even in the state it is now, it gives us
unique advantages over using other technologies that do not let you share
code between server and client sides. I surely hope people on the Dart team
recognize this strength and build further on it, rather than giving away
server side to Python/Go.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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Jan Mostert

2017-12-18 13:01:32 UTC

If you need to get work done like me, pick what's available and use it
instead of daydreaming of what should be.
I picked Kotlin for all my new backends, it's wonderful, has a very
Dart-like feel to it.

To keep the frontend and the backend models in sync,
I simply wrote a Kotlin -> Dart generator which spits out matching Dart
models from Kotlin data classes.

Use what matches your needs; if you want to travel a road where the bushes
hasn't been cleared for you,
you have two choices, pick another road or bring your own axe and panga and
clear the bushes yourself.

Certain things aren't aligned with what Google is building Dart for and
probably won't get priority.

Post by Marcello Dias
REgards to Dart popularity,and popularity matters,because of jobs,and the
language livelihood.
I thinking Dart will have an exponential growth in the coming years.
I was probably he biggest complainer about the UI abandon ware
state(specially POlimer.Dart), some years ago,but we are
living in a very difficult time ,nobody now where this "PWA vs Native war"
will going to end, Polymer
have had a really hard time,up to now, i don't really know what will be
the face of Dart in the WEB,Angular,
Angular using POlymer,POlymer itself, Flutter?
Today I don't even know all the advantages of PWA over native,or how can
Flutter can be smarter than old
executables,so I can decide what path to follow to develop my systems.
When writing a new version of a system,people look for answers not
questions,so I think this is a very hard time
to adopt new technologies.
I think Google should expand more with some Dart technologies,but I have
to recognize that I was never so confident in
Dart future like today,due to Google'Å commitment to it.

Looks like Google is positioning Dart as a technology for developing
user-facing applications (web, Flutter), but those applications don't exist
in a vacuum - most of them have a server on the other side, and the ability
to easily share the codebase is a killer feature. Having a solid foundation
on a server side will benefit the ecosystem a lot, and will attract more
developers. Just look at this topic where people confessed that they really
wanted to use Dart, but had to give up on it because of the lack of the
database drivers.
Having said that, after using Dart on the server side for few years I do
think that even with the lack of the database drivers, the server story of
the Dart is pretty damn good, which is a testament to the brilliance of the
team behind it. Yes, a lot can be improved (db drivers, better support for
the Google App Engine, etc), but even in the state it is now, it gives us
unique advantages over using other technologies that do not let you share
code between server and client sides. I surely hope people on the Dart team
recognize this strength and build further on it, rather than giving away
server side to Python/Go.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Marcello Dias

2017-12-18 15:20:19 UTC

Getting the work done is just a piece of the problem,having a cutting edge
technology that helps selling your work,
and have something that you wont have to rewrite in a near future,stay in
the shoulder of a giant,etc.
I think Kotlin followed another path that gave it more popularity in the
short run,but I myself don want anything related to Java,
and I saw a much better future to Dart than I see for Kotlin,maybe not for
the two or three upcoming years,specially related to jobs.
But everything in life is a question of choose and bet, I respect and wish
luck for everybody.
Regard complaining, and say what you think to be wrong,I think the name of
it is Feedback.
Google really seems to like it, as we saw in the two last two summits,when
they even read messages like these ones.
Two years ago UI was the most annoying thing,and that is what they
addressed.

Post by Jan Mostert
If you need to get work done like me, pick what's available and use it
instead of daydreaming of what should be.
I picked Kotlin for all my new backends, it's wonderful, has a very
Dart-like feel to it.
To keep the frontend and the backend models in sync,
I simply wrote a Kotlin -> Dart generator which spits out matching Dart
models from Kotlin data classes.
Use what matches your needs; if you want to travel a road where the bushes
hasn't been cleared for you,
you have two choices, pick another road or bring your own axe and panga
and clear the bushes yourself.
Certain things aren't aligned with what Google is building Dart for and
probably won't get priority.

Post by Marcello Dias
REgards to Dart popularity,and popularity matters,because of jobs,and the
language livelihood.
I thinking Dart will have an exponential growth in the coming years.
I was probably he biggest complainer about the UI abandon ware
state(specially POlimer.Dart), some years ago,but we are
living in a very difficult time ,nobody now where this "PWA vs Native
war" will going to end, Polymer
have had a really hard time,up to now, i don't really know what will be
the face of Dart in the WEB,Angular,
Angular using POlymer,POlymer itself, Flutter?
Today I don't even know all the advantages of PWA over native,or how can
Flutter can be smarter than old
executables,so I can decide what path to follow to develop my systems.
When writing a new version of a system,people look for answers not
questions,so I think this is a very hard time
to adopt new technologies.
I think Google should expand more with some Dart technologies,but I have
to recognize that I was never so confident in
Dart future like today,due to Google'Å commitment to it.

Post by Marcello Dias
Frank Rollpin
was totally right in every word he said.
adding my0.5 cents
Im really happy with the the things this new Dart team(I mean Dart team
seems to have changed completely since the 2012 configuration,they were
also fantastic), the type system,the UI that was abandoned between
2012-2015, better communication.
But it seems the new team are "too UI focused" we should never forget
the initial Dart promisses;A ISomorphic language.
In fact ,just seeing that Dart is the heart of Fucsia,show that Google
still believe in the isomorphic nature of Dart,but this should be in every
speech, so the world never forgets
the initial goals of the language,unless i got it totally wrong at that
time.

Looks like Google is positioning Dart as a technology for developing
user-facing applications (web, Flutter), but those applications don't exist
in a vacuum - most of them have a server on the other side, and the ability
to easily share the codebase is a killer feature. Having a solid foundation
on a server side will benefit the ecosystem a lot, and will attract more
developers. Just look at this topic where people confessed that they really
wanted to use Dart, but had to give up on it because of the lack of the
database drivers.
Having said that, after using Dart on the server side for few years I
do think that even with the lack of the database drivers, the server story
of the Dart is pretty damn good, which is a testament to the brilliance of
the team behind it. Yes, a lot can be improved (db drivers, better support
for the Google App Engine, etc), but even in the state it is now, it gives
us unique advantages over using other technologies that do not let you
share code between server and client sides. I surely hope people on the
Dart team recognize this strength and build further on it, rather than
giving away server side to Python/Go.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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--
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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Cogman

2017-12-22 21:01:26 UTC

2 things killed dart for me.

1. Communication about the project was, frankly, poor.
2. Documentation for the "killer" libraries was awful.

I mean, it looks like communication has picked up, which is a good thing.
But when I needed it most, dart went through a period of not saying
anything about anything to the general public. It was just a lot of "Hold
on to your hats, things will get better tomorrow!" and then, nothing.

And I don't know where docs are now, but in the early days they were just
plain rotten. Angular dart was practically abandoned for a while. It was
left, for months, in a half working state where you couldn't complete the
tutorials and the "how you are supposed to do things" in the tutorials were
all deprecated with unhelpful messages about "This isn't how you should do
things". This was circa the Angular 2 fiasco.

I still have a soft spot in my heart for dart, but I likely won't use it
for anything in the near future. Javascript just isn't has horrible to
work with as it used to be when dart was first born.

Post by Marcello Dias
Getting the work done is just a piece of the problem,having a cutting edge
technology that helps selling your work,
and have something that you wont have to rewrite in a near future,stay in
the shoulder of a giant,etc.
I think Kotlin followed another path that gave it more popularity in the
short run,but I myself don want anything related to Java,
and I saw a much better future to Dart than I see for Kotlin,maybe not for
the two or three upcoming years,specially related to jobs.
But everything in life is a question of choose and bet, I respect and wish
luck for everybody.
Regard complaining, and say what you think to be wrong,I think the name
of it is Feedback.
Google really seems to like it, as we saw in the two last two summits,when
they even read messages like these ones.
Two years ago UI was the most annoying thing,and that is what they
addressed.

Post by Jan Mostert
If you need to get work done like me, pick what's available and use it
instead of daydreaming of what should be.
I picked Kotlin for all my new backends, it's wonderful, has a very
Dart-like feel to it.
To keep the frontend and the backend models in sync,
I simply wrote a Kotlin -> Dart generator which spits out matching Dart
models from Kotlin data classes.
Use what matches your needs; if you want to travel a road where the
bushes hasn't been cleared for you,
you have two choices, pick another road or bring your own axe and panga
and clear the bushes yourself.
Certain things aren't aligned with what Google is building Dart for and
probably won't get priority.

Post by Marcello Dias
REgards to Dart popularity,and popularity matters,because of jobs,and
the language livelihood.
I thinking Dart will have an exponential growth in the coming years.
I was probably he biggest complainer about the UI abandon ware
state(specially POlimer.Dart), some years ago,but we are
living in a very difficult time ,nobody now where this "PWA vs Native
war" will going to end, Polymer
have had a really hard time,up to now, i don't really know what will be
the face of Dart in the WEB,Angular,
Angular using POlymer,POlymer itself, Flutter?
Today I don't even know all the advantages of PWA over native,or how can
Flutter can be smarter than old
executables,so I can decide what path to follow to develop my systems.
When writing a new version of a system,people look for answers not
questions,so I think this is a very hard time
to adopt new technologies.
I think Google should expand more with some Dart technologies,but I have
to recognize that I was never so confident in
Dart future like today,due to Google'Å commitment to it.

Post by Marcello Dias
Frank Rollpin
was totally right in every word he said.
adding my0.5 cents
Im really happy with the the things this new Dart team(I mean Dart team
seems to have changed completely since the 2012 configuration,they were
also fantastic), the type system,the UI that was abandoned between
2012-2015, better communication.
But it seems the new team are "too UI focused" we should never forget
the initial Dart promisses;A ISomorphic language.
In fact ,just seeing that Dart is the heart of Fucsia,show that Google
still believe in the isomorphic nature of Dart,but this should be in every
speech, so the world never forgets
the initial goals of the language,unless i got it totally wrong at that
time.

Looks like Google is positioning Dart as a technology for developing
user-facing applications (web, Flutter), but those applications don't exist
in a vacuum - most of them have a server on the other side, and the ability
to easily share the codebase is a killer feature. Having a solid foundation
on a server side will benefit the ecosystem a lot, and will attract more
developers. Just look at this topic where people confessed that they really
wanted to use Dart, but had to give up on it because of the lack of the
database drivers.
Having said that, after using Dart on the server side for few years I
do think that even with the lack of the database drivers, the server story
of the Dart is pretty damn good, which is a testament to the brilliance of
the team behind it. Yes, a lot can be improved (db drivers, better support
for the Google App Engine, etc), but even in the state it is now, it gives
us unique advantages over using other technologies that do not let you
share code between server and client sides. I surely hope people on the
Dart team recognize this strength and build further on it, rather than
giving away server side to Python/Go.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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Петър Събев

2017-12-12 20:34:13 UTC

We are a small company (8 developers) ... We develop web based systems in
many fields - BMS, ERP, CRM, Ecommerce and recently in Healthcare Industy.
Our framework is fully built with Dart both client and server side and we
use it for all of our projects as a base (i've attached some screenshots).
The tech stack is: Linux, Dart, PostgreSQL, Nginx. It took us almost an
year to port everything to Dart but we never regret about this...
We've started porting the framework when Dart was still in beta.
The thing that we like the most is that we have a solid base now.
Yes, Dart has some shortcommings - the community is relatively small and
often we spend time writing some basic stuff, but we suffer from the NIH
syndrome anyway :).
Along the years we've wrote barcode printer drivers, receipt printer
drivers and other exotic stuff in Dart and we all like the process. Yes, it
takes us more time to
deliver a product sometimes because of this but it's worth it.

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was
more sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to create
that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going to
keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of which
I have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting
people, and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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m***@gmail.com

2017-12-13 07:22:26 UTC

Glad to hear that you used it in the server.

Post by ÐÐµÑÑÑ Ð¡ÑÐ±ÐµÐ²
We are a small company (8 developers) ... We develop web based systems in
many fields - BMS, ERP, CRM, Ecommerce and recently in Healthcare Industy.
Our framework is fully built with Dart both client and server side and we
use it for all of our projects as a base (i've attached some screenshots).
The tech stack is: Linux, Dart, PostgreSQL, Nginx. It took us almost an
year to port everything to Dart but we never regret about this...
We've started porting the framework when Dart was still in beta.
The thing that we like the most is that we have a solid base now.
Yes, Dart has some shortcommings - the community is relatively small and
often we spend time writing some basic stuff, but we suffer from the NIH
syndrome anyway :).
Along the years we've wrote barcode printer drivers, receipt printer
drivers and other exotic stuff in Dart and we all like the process. Yes, it
takes us more time to
deliver a product sometimes because of this but it's worth it.

Post by Marcello Dias
I remember something between 2012-2013,people used to talk about Dart as
multi purpose language,exactly
what its becoming now,with Flutter,Dartino,Angular.dart,but it took from
2013-2016 until we have something useful
to construct the UI,if we remember Polymer was the biggest bet.
But I think React was a real life punch in the face,javascript
programmers were not a serious audience for a stronged
typed language,Google could make a even better language, I understand all
that,a change in the root was needed.
What I donÂŽt understand is that the third richest company in the
world,that has everything to become the first,can concentrate
only in the client side, that they donÂŽt care of the users base size.
As Joao Pedrosa said,Dart really lost a window of opportunity.
Without the community we would have just nothing to use in the server side.
TheyÂŽre waiting for the community to solve ervery single piece of the
puzzle?
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?
This is my question,but the community may have another thousands.
People donÂŽt like to be Guinea pigs,when and if Google wants Dart to be
mainstream,it should do something itself to show the world,dissecate ervery
little piece of the stack they used, as Microsoft does.
I used to think that Google would do whatever it takes to make Dart the
next big thing,after Java and .NET.
Marcello

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was
more sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to
create that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going to
keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of which
I have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting
people, and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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Samuel Schwebel

2017-12-13 10:53:58 UTC

Thanks for share your experience on full stack Dart development, though I
think that you had a lot of work to do together some pieces (drives
development, etc.)

This was (with belief, will be) my primary expectative with Dart: client
and server development, with a same language and batteries included
(primarly complete libraries for both sides) turning the development very
easy and rapid.

In this year we saw a lot of work and evolution on client side with Angular
and Flutter. The Dart Team is very competent and have great guys. I beleave
that in the near future server side will evoluation too (Drivers to access
databases, sensor, devices; Libraries to Machine Learning, IoT; High
performance concerns) to bring us a nice experince in full stack
development.

Post by Marcello Dias
I remember something between 2012-2013,people used to talk about Dart as
multi purpose language,exactly
what its becoming now,with Flutter,Dartino,Angular.dart,but it took from
2013-2016 until we have something useful
to construct the UI,if we remember Polymer was the biggest bet.
But I think React was a real life punch in the face,javascript
programmers were not a serious audience for a stronged
typed language,Google could make a even better language, I understand all
that,a change in the root was needed.
What I donÂŽt understand is that the third richest company in the
world,that has everything to become the first,can concentrate
only in the client side, that they donÂŽt care of the users base size.
As Joao Pedrosa said,Dart really lost a window of opportunity.
Without the community we would have just nothing to use in the server side.
TheyÂŽre waiting for the community to solve ervery single piece of the
puzzle?
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?
This is my question,but the community may have another thousands.
People donÂŽt like to be Guinea pigs,when and if Google wants Dart to be
mainstream,it should do something itself to show the world,dissecate ervery
little piece of the stack they used, as Microsoft does.
I used to think that Google would do whatever it takes to make Dart the
next big thing,after Java and .NET.
Marcello

Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the

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Marcello Dias

2017-12-13 12:56:17 UTC

https://www.infoworld.com/article/2883328/node-js/java-vs-nodejs-an-epic-battle-for-developer-mindshare.html
See this article,although It may have some misconceptions, I really would
expect that Dart would play an important
role by now.
In 2012 everybody talked about Dart as the MEssias ,the guy who wold solve
all the problems found both in Java, and JavaScript,,and make everybody
speak
the same language.
I expect this enormous delay have to do with the changes in the
language,new challenges that appeared during the journey,and
not this thinking that,if Python or GO does, why care?
My biggest concern is what the author speaks in the article.
Is the single thread(ISolates in Dart) suitable for ERP development?
I mean an ERP is really different than a Web Store,both in the shape of
Data,and the way people interact with it.
Once again,I have to go to the Dark Side(Microsoft) ,looking for answers
and try to mimic it int the language that I would like to use, Dart.
Because there are almost no real life applications,and GOogle donÂŽt want to
dissecate it like MIcrosoft does, remeber "We'Åe extremely focused in the
client side."
Unfortunatelly,if TypeScript was isomorphic as Dart was promisses,even
being inferior in its semantics and features,I would probably stick with it
by now.
We developers don't have billions like Google,almost always we have a
single bullet on our guns, we need ready made answers, before jumping in
something.

Post by Samuel Schwebel
Thanks for share your experience on full stack Dart development, though I
think that you had a lot of work to do together some pieces (drives
development, etc.)
This was (with belief, will be) my primary expectative with Dart: client
and server development, with a same language and batteries included
(primarly complete libraries for both sides) turning the development very
easy and rapid.
In this year we saw a lot of work and evolution on client side with
Angular and Flutter. The Dart Team is very competent and have great guys. I
beleave that in the near future server side will evoluation too (Drivers to
access databases, sensor, devices; Libraries to Machine Learning, IoT; High
performance concerns) to bring us a nice experince in full stack
development.

Post by ÐÐµÑÑÑ Ð¡ÑÐ±ÐµÐ²
We are a small company (8 developers) ... We develop web based systems
in many fields - BMS, ERP, CRM, Ecommerce and recently in Healthcare
Industy.
Our framework is fully built with Dart both client and server side and we
use it for all of our projects as a base (i've attached some screenshots).
The tech stack is: Linux, Dart, PostgreSQL, Nginx. It took us almost an
year to port everything to Dart but we never regret about this...
We've started porting the framework when Dart was still in beta.
The thing that we like the most is that we have a solid base now.
Yes, Dart has some shortcommings - the community is relatively small and
often we spend time writing some basic stuff, but we suffer from the NIH
syndrome anyway :).
Along the years we've wrote barcode printer drivers, receipt printer
drivers and other exotic stuff in Dart and we all like the process. Yes, it
takes us more time to
deliver a product sometimes because of this but it's worth it.

Post by Marcello Dias
I remember something between 2012-2013,people used to talk about Dart as
multi purpose language,exactly
what its becoming now,with Flutter,Dartino,Angular.dart,but it took
from 2013-2016 until we have something useful
to construct the UI,if we remember Polymer was the biggest bet.
But I think React was a real life punch in the face,javascript
programmers were not a serious audience for a stronged
typed language,Google could make a even better language, I understand
all that,a change in the root was needed.
What I donÂŽt understand is that the third richest company in the
world,that has everything to become the first,can concentrate
only in the client side, that they donÂŽt care of the users base size.
As Joao Pedrosa said,Dart really lost a window of opportunity.
Without the community we would have just nothing to use in the server side.
TheyÂŽre waiting for the community to solve ervery single piece of the
puzzle?
Is there one,just one company in the world,who have made an ERP alike
software,using Dart,in the front and backend,
running any flavour of a Sql server?
This is my question,but the community may have another thousands.
People donÂŽt like to be Guinea pigs,when and if Google wants Dart to be
mainstream,it should do something itself to show the world,dissecate ervery
little piece of the stack they used, as Microsoft does.
I used to think that Google would do whatever it takes to make Dart the
next big thing,after Java and .NET.
Marcello

Being a superuser of Dart in the past, I would like to testify that the

Post by Kenneth Endfinger
main reason I have shifted somewhat away from Dart is the ecosystem.
I worked for about 2 full years on packages and code. I've done so many
things in Dart, it's just hard to count them all.
I just didn't see the spark of an ecosystem that was building, it was
more sustaining.
I used to have the viewpoint that it was up to adopters like me to
create that ecosystem, with libraries for new use cases,
but I felt like there just wasn't enough momentum. I wrote many massive
production projects in Dart, and made open source libraries like the GitHub
library, a Git library, and more.
Another concern I have with Dart is: communication. I feel that the
direction of the project was never fully out there, probably because of the
corporate nature.
*Nobody* wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's
going to continue to be worked on many years from now. I for a long time had
myself convinced that adoption of Dart internally at Google was going
to keep it alive, but I have smaller faith in that as I look at history.
But I love love love the team at Google who works on Dart, some of
which I have met in person, and I find them to be hard working, interesting
people, and
I will continue to try to keep some of my projects maintained, but I've
just moved on from my past passion.
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Filipe Morgado

2017-12-13 15:32:50 UTC

Just my 2 cts ...

Post by Marcello Dias
https://www.infoworld.com/article/2883328/node-js/java-vs-nodejs-an-epic-battle-for-developer-mindshare.html
...
In 2012 everybody talked about Dart as the Messiah ,the guy who wold solve
all the problems found both in Java, and JavaScript,,and make everybody
speak
the same language.
...

Go, Ruby, NodeJS, C#, Haxe, Rust, Nim, etc are all seen by their respective
developers are THE Messiahs. Especially those that also compile to JS
(except NodeJS of course).

Try Kotlin. I bet you'll really like it too. I know I do, I just can't
stand the JVM.

There are those who use Java, VB, PHP, etc ... They recognize the flaws,
but they just don't care because they get things done, don't want to
relearn a development stack and don't want to rewrite the 50'000 utility
classes they love.

Then there are the millions of line of code written in whatever language
that would take decades to rewrite. Some people are just stuck with
whatever they have.

There'll never be a single ring to rule them all.

I use Dart because I want to, and I write those missing libraries myself,
if I can.
Sometimes I just have to use another language for whatever reason (like
Dart's lack of Dynamic module loading
<https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/issues/10530>).
It's OK, I like C# as well. The company I work for pays for the licenses,
so ...

When I see the dozens (hundreds?) of engineers invested in Dart, Flutter
and Fuchsia, I know Dart is not going away anytime soon.
The low popularity doesn't bother me at all.

m***@gmail.com

2017-12-13 17:01:28 UTC

know I do, I just can't stand the JVM.
ME too.
REally don't want anything related to Java.

Em quarta-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2017 13:32:50 UTC-2, Filipe Morgado

Post by Filipe Morgado
Just my 2 cts ...

Post by Marcello Dias
https://www.infoworld.com/article/2883328/node-js/java-vs-nodejs-an-epic-battle-for-developer-mindshare.html
...
In 2012 everybody talked about Dart as the Messiah ,the guy who wold
solve all the problems found both in Java, and JavaScript,,and make
everybody speak
the same language.
...

Go, Ruby, NodeJS, C#, Haxe, Rust, Nim, etc are all seen by their
respective developers as THE Messiahs. Especially those that also compile
to JS (except NodeJS of course).
Try Kotlin. I bet you'll really like it too. I know I do, I just can't
stand the JVM.
There are those who use Java, VB, PHP, etc ... They recognize the flaws,
but they just don't care because they get things done, don't want to
relearn a development stack and don't want to rewrite the 50'000 utility
classes they love.
Then there are the millions of line of code written in whatever language
that would take decades to rewrite. Some people are just stuck with
whatever they have.
There'll never be a single ring to rule them all.
I use Dart because I want to, and I write those missing libraries myself,
if I can.
Sometimes I just have to use another language for whatever reason (like
Dart's lack of Dynamic module loading
<https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/issues/10530>).
It's OK, I like C# as well. The company I work for pays for the licenses,
so ...
When I see the dozens (hundreds?) of engineers invested in Dart, Flutter
and Fuchsia, I know Dart is not going away anytime soon.
The low popularity doesn't bother me at all.

Istvan Soos

2017-12-12 13:27:26 UTC

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Kenneth Endfinger

Nobody wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's going to
continue to be worked on many years from now.

While this is true, it is a bit misguided. Look at the history of
once-popular frameworks in their prime, and past their prime. You can
always pinpoint a period, when they were popular, where everything
looked good, and then 6-12 months down the line, they fell out of the
public's grace, and their development momentum went back to a fraction
of the previous period. For example jQuery, ext JS or dojo toolkit
from the JS world had these periods.

Now, being open source and all, the application you have built on
these won't stop working. You may think of a full rewrite maybe a year
or two sooner than otherwise, but other than that, the business will
get its value out of it.

Cheers,
Istvan

Kenneth Endfinger

2017-12-12 19:45:23 UTC

For some use cases, yes.

Where this changes is for a business that has constantly evolving products,
with constantly evolving requirements, with a requirement that the provided
product is present physically with the customer.
You need a stable, large community to effectively use a platform at the
core of a business model.

Post by Istvan Soos
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Kenneth Endfinger

Nobody wants to adopt a language that they aren't even sure if it's

going to

continue to be worked on many years from now.

While this is true, it is a bit misguided. Look at the history of
once-popular frameworks in their prime, and past their prime. You can
always pinpoint a period, when they were popular, where everything
looked good, and then 6-12 months down the line, they fell out of the
public's grace, and their development momentum went back to a fraction
of the previous period. For example jQuery, ext JS or dojo toolkit
from the JS world had these periods.
Now, being open source and all, the application you have built on
these won't stop working. You may think of a full rewrite maybe a year
or two sooner than otherwise, but other than that, the business will
get its value out of it.
Cheers,
Istvan

Marcello Dias

2017-12-12 22:45:16 UTC

Well,I was kidding about C#,but ir resumes my initial expectations about
Dart.

m***@gmail.com

2017-12-24 21:22:08 UTC

I tried Dart in 2013 and 2015,and really thought it to be an lonely cowboy
language,
I mean you were by yourself,poor documentation,poor communication ,a lot of
abandoned projects,
really difficult to start.
More or like what Thomas May have said.
But, In the last two weeks I think I learned more than in months in my old
trials.
Not only the language has improved,but the ecosystem as a whole,both in the
client and also a little bit in the server.
The IDE, and debbuging support, that was something from cave man era, are
really pleasant to work with now.
Google commitment to the language seems to have increased a lot.
Since the beginning I thought that trying to please JavaScript programmers
was an error,Dart should be Strong typed from the first day.
So.ALthough it is "delaying" things a lot, it was a change that had to be
made.
Its also a hard work to keep things up to date, in this PDCA cycle that is
happening to front end frameworks,so GOogle is not guilty
of everything.
Today I have no fear about the future of the language anymore.
Up to know I don think we have a better and cleaner stack to work with,So I
prefer to forgive the errors of the past, and be happy.

Em segunda-feira, 11 de dezembro de 2017 16:55:20 UTC-2, Joao Pedrosa

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Hi all,
Been a while, watching from the side-lines. Waiting for Dart's
improvements like
many of you. :-)
There is a lot of uncertainty regarding Dart, right? What happened to Dart?
In summary, Dart has tried to morph from being a language centered around
a VM like many before (like Java) to being one that can exist in the absence
of a VM always backing it up.
Dart the compiled language is supposed to come out of this transition. Do we
really need a compiled language when so many others seem to do well while
having a VM instead?
One issue that a compiled language can help with is to seek to deliver a
greater
deal of performance. Performance for what though? Performance can mean
different things to different people. With languages dependent on VMs having
great performance at times.
And that's the problem with Dart's evolution. There isn't a fixed goal in
terms
of performance. Competitors like Java, C++, Go, JavaScript, etc have their
own
performance goals that may make them more appealing than Dart to their
unique market niches. So for example, if performance meant to use as little
memory as possible, maybe an alternative to Dart would fair a bit better.
In reading
discussions here on the mailing list, you may get users surprised when Dart
connected to a database may start to consume lots of memory as the data
queue becomes bogged down. Then you may have to try to pause it to keep the
memory use lower.
Laziness brings a certain level of unpredictableness first experienced in
languages
like Haskell. So the challenges facing Dart with async and so on are not
new. And
languages that are different to Dart may help with making things more
predictable
at the cost of making them less lazy by default.
Some other issue with performance is that computation used to calculated
things
for billions of people deserves an approach that works for those extreme
scenarios.
Google have systems that have been proved to work for billions of people,
so when
they create libraries, languages etc they may have as a priority to
connect to those
large scalability systems. And even then, as they try to phase out some of
their
systems that have been deprecated, they may not connect to nearly all of
their
systems anyways. Plus, they may avoid repeating themselves too much when
connecting to their systems to try to reduce their maintenance burden in
making
their systems more profitable. So for example if Go is great for something
they do
already, they may avoid using Dart for that as well.
Dart's improvements come after all those kinds of considerations.
Something else that needs to be considered is that as the market shifts to
new
technologies, even the community may lose interest in some of the
technologies
that may be considered outdated by now. We lose those windows of
opportunity.
We ought to consider that Google have been consistent in their adoption of
languages
like C++, Go, Java, JavaScript, Python... Our problem with Dart is that
Dart was just
one more in a long list of languages.
Cheers,
Joao
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Livre
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Randal L. Schwartz

2017-12-26 23:04:25 UTC

md9projeto> Since the beginning I thought that trying to please
md9projeto> JavaScript programmers was an error,Dart should be Strong
md9projeto> typed from the first day.

Not just strongly typed, but the type inference system has made the
strong typing nearly invisible.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<***@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/Dart consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
Still trying to think of something clever for the fourth line of this .sig

m***@gmail.com

2017-12-27 10:07:24 UTC

Em terÃ§a-feira, 26 de dezembro de 2017 21:04:32 UTC-2, Randal L. Schwartz

Post by Randal L. Schwartz
Not just strongly typed, but the type inference system has made the
strong typing nearly invisible.

Sometimes I think Larry Page and Sergey Brin did not learn a single word

from their guru Steve Jobs.
When Jobs wanted to do something,he didnt care about audience,the general
thinking,he just did what the logic said it was
the way to ship the best product, he could ship at a certain time.
Flash was bad,drop it,and let them cry.
Javascript is garbage,TypeScript is garbage with some fragant
disinfectant .
If we think all the changes Dart have to embrace because single concessions
it have made to be more popular, it is not dificult
to think how Polymer would be better if it was written in Dart(this 2.0
one) from the beggining.
One Day Dart will probably have to embrace Polymer.
Google gave a way of Javacript programmers to continue delivering their
last denominator product,and will have to keep this @#!$ for eternity.

Ryan Gonzalez

2017-12-27 14:48:22 UTC

This is so wrong on all sorts of levels.

Key difference: Apple was selling itself to users, but the projects you mentioned are billing themselves to developers. You can't just cut off JS Polymer support. Devs already are hesitant to adopt Google products because of perceived frequent abandonment, and this would make it worse.

Also, those decisions Jobs made were more objective (Flash put too much load on device CPUs) vs JavaScript being bad.

In addition, Google is made up of different teams. For all you know, the Polymer team just prefers JS.

You're basically comparing Apple's

Post by m***@gmail.com
Em terÃ§a-feira, 26 de dezembro de 2017 21:04:32 UTC-2, Randal L. Schwartz

Post by Randal L. Schwartz
Not just strongly typed, but the type inference system has made the
strong typing nearly invisible.

Sometimes I think Larry Page and Sergey Brin did not learn a single

word
from their guru Steve Jobs.
When Jobs wanted to do something,he didnt care about audience,the general
thinking,he just did what the logic said it was
the way to ship the best product, he could ship at a certain time.
Flash was bad,drop it,and let them cry.
Javascript is garbage,TypeScript is garbage with some fragant
disinfectant .
If we think all the changes Dart have to embrace because single
concessions
it have made to be more popular, it is not dificult
to think how Polymer would be better if it was written in Dart(this 2.0
one) from the beggining.
One Day Dart will probably have to embrace Polymer.
Google gave a way of Javacript programmers to continue delivering their
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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Marcello Dias

2017-12-27 16:38:14 UTC

Ryan Shimomura said

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
In addition, Google is made up of different teams. For all you know, the

Polymer team just prefers JS.

Those who pay the bills allways take the final decision,
Polymer used JS because of audience this is stated in many places.

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
You can't just cut off JS Polymer support. Devs already are hesitant to

adopt Google products because of perceived frequent abandonment,

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
and this would make it worse.

I did not say cut off support, I said the project should not have started
with JS(now they have to keep it for the eternity or suffer the
consequences),
since at that time Google itself criticized a lot javascript(at least
that was the V8ÂŽS men opinions,probably those who knew javascriptÂŽs
problems deeply).

But youÂŽre right in a sense that in Google there is not a concensus about
nothing,
somethimes thatÂŽs good, because the research follows several diferent paths.
sometimes thatÂŽs bad, because resources are bad allocated.
The difference in thinking is that Google speachs Like Apple and acts like
Microsoft(at least in this case).
Apple:We should do what we think weÂŽll make our product as close as perfect
as possible, people will use
it because they wonÂŽt find anything better(of course is a question of
taste).

Microsoft:Lets sell as much copies as we can,people wonÂŽt leave us because
they know it will give them too much work.

Google itself was allways a disruptive an perfecionist company,it was not
me who listen to Steve Jobs, it was GoogleÂŽs
owners,everybody know that.
The changes in Dart shows that the path was wrong,and driven by audience,
which is never good for the quality, and quality
is the only thing that matters,specially in the software industry,when its
more expensive to produce things you know are wrong than
it takes to produce things you know are right.

Marcello

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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
This is so wrong on all sorts of levels.
Key difference: Apple was selling itself to users, but the projects you
mentioned are billing themselves to developers. You can't just cut off JS
Polymer support. Devs already are hesitant to adopt Google products because
of perceived frequent abandonment, and this would make it worse.
Also, those decisions Jobs made were more objective (Flash put too much
load on device CPUs) vs JavaScript being bad.
In addition, Google is made up of different teams. For all you know, the
Polymer team just prefers JS.
You're basically comparing Apple's

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
Em terÃ§a-feira, 26 de dezembro de 2017 21:04:32 UTC-2, Randal L. Schwartz

Post by Randal L. Schwartz
Not just strongly typed, but the type inference system has made the
strong typing nearly invisible.

Sometimes I think Larry Page and Sergey Brin did not learn a single word

from their guru Steve Jobs.
When Jobs wanted to do something,he didnt care about audience,the general
thinking,he just did what the logic said it was
the way to ship the best product, he could ship at a certain time.
Flash was bad,drop it,and let them cry.
Javascript is garbage,TypeScript is garbage with some fragant
disinfectant .
If we think all the changes Dart have to embrace because single
concessions it have made to be more popular, it is not dificult
to think how Polymer would be better if it was written in Dart(this 2.0
one) from the beggining.
One Day Dart will probably have to embrace Polymer.
Google gave a way of Javacript programmers to continue delivering their

--
Ryan (ã©ã€ã¢ã³)
Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
https://refi64.com/
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Daniel Morilha

2017-12-27 19:09:05 UTC

I think my compatriots fail to understand how big Silicon Valley companies
work and how projects are managed and funded. I'm glad Google doesn't
monetize Dart, at least directly. Anyways... With that said and focusing on
the positive side I think dart is a brilliant language when compared with
js, java, ... The approach is very pragmatic and engineers behind it are
super competent. The steps being taken towards 2.0 bring well proven ideas
to the language without the burden. The brilliant idea to keep JIT and AOT
comes from all the lessons learned with Android. The kernel front-end
separates the syntax sugary and will eventually allow to revisit the vm /
back-end compiler focusing on what matters: performance and portability.
I've been following the commits into the vm - the area I'm mostly
interested into - and with flutter coming along and departing from the JS
mentality I still see a bright future for the language coming later rather
than never. Thanks

Post by Marcello Dias
Ryan Shimomura said

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
In addition, Google is made up of different teams. For all you know, the

Polymer team just prefers JS.
Those who pay the bills allways take the final decision,
Polymer used JS because of audience this is stated in many places.

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
You can't just cut off JS Polymer support. Devs already are hesitant to

adopt Google products because of perceived frequent abandonment,

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
and this would make it worse.

I did not say cut off support, I said the project should not have started
with JS(now they have to keep it for the eternity or suffer the
consequences),
since at that time Google itself criticized a lot javascript(at least
that was the V8ÂŽS men opinions,probably those who knew javascriptÂŽs
problems deeply).
But youÂŽre right in a sense that in Google there is not a concensus about
nothing,
somethimes thatÂŽs good, because the research follows several diferent paths.
sometimes thatÂŽs bad, because resources are bad allocated.
The difference in thinking is that Google speachs Like Apple and acts like
Microsoft(at least in this case).
Apple:We should do what we think weÂŽll make our product as close as
perfect as possible, people will use
it because they wonÂŽt find anything better(of course is a question of
taste).
Microsoft:Lets sell as much copies as we can,people wonÂŽt leave us because
they know it will give them too much work.
Google itself was allways a disruptive an perfecionist company,it was not
me who listen to Steve Jobs, it was GoogleÂŽs
owners,everybody know that.
The changes in Dart shows that the path was wrong,and driven by audience,
which is never good for the quality, and quality
is the only thing that matters,specially in the software industry,when its
more expensive to produce things you know are wrong than
it takes to produce things you know are right.
Marcello
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Post by Ryan Gonzalez
Em terÃ§a-feira, 26 de dezembro de 2017 21:04:32 UTC-2, Randal L.

Post by Randal L. Schwartz
Not just strongly typed, but the type inference system has made the
strong typing nearly invisible.

Sometimes I think Larry Page and Sergey Brin did not learn a single

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2017-12-28 11:38:46 UTC

I clap what I think is right,and complain for what I think is wrong, just
that.
Iáž¿ really happy that Google has picked Dart for the "Native vs PWA war"
against itself.
I just think that it should also have picked Dart for PWA,because when
Polymer born,JavaScript without solution problems were already been
discovered,
and Dart have already born.
In my opinion, PWA and native will probably fit for different purposes,and
I would like Dart to be a killer player in both of them.
In the future would also like to have something that can generate PWA and
native from the same source,there are solutions like that in the market,but
not very fancy
at the moment.
Today Google is a joke in the developers community,things like ,"If you
want to use something from Google,make sure it is a still live project".
Fortunatelly,Angular ,flutter state of the art status,are changing this.
I hope onde day Polymer got translated to Dart like it happened to
Angular,but Iáž¿ not very confident about that, at least in the short run.
I really like things like JSX,Razor pages and lit html,but I'Äºl have to
wait Angular to make a decision about that,than waiting angular.dart team
to make the change,really
bad to be "the poor cousin",although we know the "poor cousin" is stronger
and can be the "rich cousin" in the future.
SO iáž¿ concentrating in Flutter,and praying.
But I still think that if Dart was born stronger,and POlymer and ANgular
was born in Dart,
Dart would be a mainstream language today,something that will probably take
a decade now.
But thats past.

Marcello

Post by Daniel Morilha
I think my compatriots fail to understand how big Silicon Valley companies
work and how projects are managed and funded. I'm glad Google doesn't
monetize Dart, at least directly. Anyways... With that said and focusing on
the positive side I think dart is a brilliant language when compared with
js, java, ... The approach is very pragmatic and engineers behind it are
super competent. The steps being taken towards 2.0 bring well proven ideas
to the language without the burden. The brilliant idea to keep JIT and AOT
comes from all the lessons learned with Android. The kernel front-end
separates the syntax sugary and will eventually allow to revisit the vm /
back-end compiler focusing on what matters: performance and portability.
I've been following the commits into the vm - the area I'm mostly
interested into - and with flutter coming along and departing from the JS
mentality I still see a bright future for the language coming later rather
than never. Thanks

Post by Marcello Dias
Ryan Shimomura said

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
In addition, Google is made up of different teams. For all you know,

the Polymer team just prefers JS.
Those who pay the bills allways take the final decision,
Polymer used JS because of audience this is stated in many places.

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
You can't just cut off JS Polymer support. Devs already are hesitant to

adopt Google products because of perceived frequent abandonment,

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
and this would make it worse.

I did not say cut off support, I said the project should not have started
with JS(now they have to keep it for the eternity or suffer the
consequences),
since at that time Google itself criticized a lot javascript(at least
that was the V8ÂŽS men opinions,probably those who knew javascriptÂŽs
problems deeply).
But youÂŽre right in a sense that in Google there is not a concensus
about nothing,
somethimes thatÂŽs good, because the research follows several diferent paths.
sometimes thatÂŽs bad, because resources are bad allocated.
The difference in thinking is that Google speachs Like Apple and acts
like Microsoft(at least in this case).
Apple:We should do what we think weÂŽll make our product as close as
perfect as possible, people will use
it because they wonÂŽt find anything better(of course is a question of
taste).
Microsoft:Lets sell as much copies as we can,people wonÂŽt leave us
because they know it will give them too much work.
Google itself was allways a disruptive an perfecionist company,it was not
me who listen to Steve Jobs, it was GoogleÂŽs
owners,everybody know that.
The changes in Dart shows that the path was wrong,and driven by audience,
which is never good for the quality, and quality
is the only thing that matters,specially in the software industry,when
its more expensive to produce things you know are wrong than
it takes to produce things you know are right.
Marcello
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de vÃrus. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>.

Post by Ryan Gonzalez
Em terÃ§a-feira, 26 de dezembro de 2017 21:04:32 UTC-2, Randal L.

Post by Randal L. Schwartz
Not just strongly typed, but the type inference system has made the
strong typing nearly invisible.

Sometimes I think Larry Page and Sergey Brin did not learn a single

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Joao Pedrosa

2017-12-30 23:11:29 UTC

Hi,

We are all in this waiting game. It reminds me of that experiment where
they have children
together, and they have a bowl of cookies on a table near them. The
experimenter tells them
that if they wait till the end to eat their cookies, that they can have 2
cookies instead of just
1. With Dart we would be due many cookies indeed. :-)

You can make a difference by adopting Flutter early, I guess. The problem
is that Flutter
cannot promise stability while even the language is changing and Google is
plenty happy
with supporting projects that they maintain under a Beta status so that
they can keep
changing things as it better fits Google's goals.

Here's to a better 2018 to everyone!

Cheers,
Joao

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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Marcello Dias

2017-12-31 09:15:36 UTC

Daniel Morilha said:
1. With Dart we would be due many cookies indeed. :-)
Well,the attached picture shows what I think to be my portion.

Post by Joao Pedrosa
Hi,

Post by Daniel Morilha
I think my compatriots fail to understand how big Silicon Valley
companies work and how projects are managed and funded. I'm glad Google
doesn't monetize Dart, at least directly. Anyways... With that said and
focusing on the positive side I think dart is a brilliant language when
compared with js, java, ... The approach is very pragmatic and engineers
behind it are super competent. The steps being taken towards 2.0 bring well
proven ideas to the language without the burden. The brilliant idea to keep
JIT and AOT comes from all the lessons learned with Android. The kernel
front-end separates the syntax sugary and will eventually allow to revisit
the vm / back-end compiler focusing on what matters: performance and
portability. I've been following the commits into the vm - the area I'm
mostly interested into - and with flutter coming along and departing from
the JS mentality I still see a bright future for the language coming later
rather than never. Thanks

We are all in this waiting game. It reminds me of that experiment where
they have children
together, and they have a bowl of cookies on a table near them. The
experimenter tells them
that if they wait till the end to eat their cookies, that they can have 2
cookies instead of just
1. With Dart we would be due many cookies indeed. :-)
You can make a difference by adopting Flutter early, I guess. The problem
is that Flutter
cannot promise stability while even the language is changing and Google is
plenty happy
with supporting projects that they maintain under a Beta status so that
they can keep
changing things as it better fits Google's goals.
Here's to a better 2018 to everyone!
Cheers,
Joao
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Livre
de vÃrus. www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>.
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2017-12-31 20:46:36 UTC

So many things being fixed,and this enourmous Appendix left behind,for me
its a shame,
its like marrying Cindy Crawford even if she snores,because nothing is
perfect.
https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk/issues/1410

Em segunda-feira, 11 de dezembro de 2017 16:55:20 UTC-2, Joao Pedrosa

Jonas Bojesen

2018-01-04 14:22:06 UTC