[dart-misc] Dart Developer Survey - Help us plan for 2016

Discussion:

'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc

2015-09-01 18:20:05 UTC

tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time and fill
out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.

Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart? You can
fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)

We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.

On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/

For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart

To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to misc+***@dartlang.org.

Don Olmstead

2015-09-01 18:41:11 UTC

Permalink

Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues with
Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other questions are
phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a Strongly Disagree.
Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time and fill
out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart? You can
fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

2015-09-01 19:13:25 UTC

Permalink

Post by Don Olmstead
Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?

"I don't spend enough time working around bugs/issues with Dart for the
web."

:)

- bob

Günter Zöchbauer

2015-09-01 19:40:01 UTC

Permalink

LOL

Post by Don Olmstead
Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
"I don't spend enough time working around bugs/issues with Dart for the web."
:)
- bob

Kasper Peulen

2015-09-01 19:59:10 UTC

Permalink

The tiny boxes didn't really allow long text, so I put here a short summary
of my feedback for Dart.

One thing I love about Dart compared to javascript, is that there are not
too many options. Especially in places where you don't want too many
options, like how to import a library. No choice, using jquery or not,
everyone just seem to use dart:html.

Also Dart is quite opinionated in areas where things are more a matter of
taste. Like the dart style guide. Or actively recommending Webstorm as
editor. I like that as well. I think especially if you don't have an
opinion yet about that, you can just look at what Dart recommends. And if
you already have a strong opinion, you are free to use something else (some
other style preferences, or use an other editor).

For javascript, there are like 20 different opinions, 20 different tastes
for every tiny thing. One likes to use jquery, one doesn't like it. The
other likes to style code like this, the other likes that. One like bower,
the other likes to use just npm. And there is no really clear "winner", no
clear "standard". As there is no javascript team that says, let's just all
use npm as package manager from now on (instead of bower).

So for me, Dart feels like some kind of safe land, isolated from the horror
of javascript. You want to manipulate the dom, use dart:html. You want to
write a command line app ? Use args library. But... here comes my negative
feedback. At this moment, there is no clear direction what kind of web
framework to use with Dart. Or if you don't use such kind of
framework/library, how to structure your app. In the past it seemed to be
polymer. If you google for how to write a web app in dart, you get many old
references to polymer. But in april, the dart team announced that angular 2
will be the recommended framework. But basicly that means that from april
to now, there is no direction from the dart team how to write your web app.
And I don't know when angular 2 will come out, but I think this will be the
same situation for some months then.

I have some friends that are interested in building webapps/websites, but
with no prior knowledge, and don't really want to spend months figuring
everything out. But to be honest, I don't recommend them dart yet, because
of this reason. And this is coming from a dart fanboy! What I tell them
that that javascript is quite some horror, but that polymer 1 makes
everything quite a little bit nicer, and it is easy to make something quite
good looking with polymer 1. And that for Dart you better wait until end
2015/begin 2016.

Post by Don Olmstead
Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues with
Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other questions are
phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a Strongly Disagree.
Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Kasper

Jan Mostert

2015-09-01 21:28:27 UTC

Permalink

I quite like it that there is no framework being forced down your throat
and that you have multiple options in case you do want to use a framework.
I currently build my own "framework" using nothing but dart:html, gives me
exactly what I need without the extra overhead.

Post by Kasper Peulen
The tiny boxes didn't really allow long text, so I put here a short
summary of my feedback for Dart.
One thing I love about Dart compared to javascript, is that there are not
too many options. Especially in places where you don't want too many
options, like how to import a library. No choice, using jquery or not,
everyone just seem to use dart:html.
Also Dart is quite opinionated in areas where things are more a matter of
taste. Like the dart style guide. Or actively recommending Webstorm as
editor. I like that as well. I think especially if you don't have an
opinion yet about that, you can just look at what Dart recommends. And if
you already have a strong opinion, you are free to use something else (some
other style preferences, or use an other editor).
For javascript, there are like 20 different opinions, 20 different tastes
for every tiny thing. One likes to use jquery, one doesn't like it. The
other likes to style code like this, the other likes that. One like bower,
the other likes to use just npm. And there is no really clear "winner", no
clear "standard". As there is no javascript team that says, let's just all
use npm as package manager from now on (instead of bower).
So for me, Dart feels like some kind of safe land, isolated from the
horror of javascript. You want to manipulate the dom, use dart:html. You
want to write a command line app ? Use args library. But... here comes my
negative feedback. At this moment, there is no clear direction what kind of
web framework to use with Dart. Or if you don't use such kind of
framework/library, how to structure your app. In the past it seemed to be
polymer. If you google for how to write a web app in dart, you get many old
references to polymer. But in april, the dart team announced that angular 2
will be the recommended framework. But basicly that means that from april
to now, there is no direction from the dart team how to write your web app.
And I don't know when angular 2 will come out, but I think this will be the
same situation for some months then.
I have some friends that are interested in building webapps/websites, but
with no prior knowledge, and don't really want to spend months figuring
everything out. But to be honest, I don't recommend them dart yet, because
of this reason. And this is coming from a dart fanboy! What I tell them
that that javascript is quite some horror, but that polymer 1 makes
everything quite a little bit nicer, and it is easy to make something quite
good looking with polymer 1. And that for Dart you better wait until end
2015/begin 2016.

Post by Don Olmstead
Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues
with Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other questions
are phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a Strongly
Disagree. Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time and fill
out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart? You
can fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Kasper
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Kévin Platel

2015-09-01 22:07:52 UTC

Permalink

I agree with Kasper Peulen, actually i feel like "It's looks like
something really awesome will happen shortly, but now i don't know exactly
what to do" between angular1 and angular2 or polymer 0.16 (0.5 js version)
and the coming 0.17 (1.0 js version ?) it's look like a transition period,
the same thing for sky and dart on mobile, the sky framework will be web
compatible ? would it be possible to create a web binding ?

I feel confident for the future of Dart, be now it's pretty hard to
convince someone to go on Dart for the web for more than a simple website
without the real support of the big web framework.

KÃ©vin

Post by Jan Mostert
I quite like it that there is no framework being forced down your throat
and that you have multiple options in case you do want to use a framework.
I currently build my own "framework" using nothing but dart:html, gives me
exactly what I need without the extra overhead.

Post by Don Olmstead
Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues
with Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other questions
are phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a Strongly
Disagree. Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time and fill
out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart? You
can fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Jack Murphy

2015-09-02 00:22:52 UTC

Permalink

I responded with comments similar to Kaspers.

Here's are some additional notes:

*Places For Improvement: *

â¢ Branding: After the Chrome VM strategy shift there's a lot of bad info
floating around the web. Dart really needs some advocacy out of Google.
For me, the Dart brand is the hardest part on selling it for internal use.

People now associate Dart with the "no chrome vm" language. When trying to
sell it, you start at a deficit. This is coupled with the Angular team
using TypeScript instead if Dart.

(I think people in the community understand that the transpiled output
doesn't yield the readable code required for a project like angular - but
that was never widely emphasized. I dont think the web at large understand
the nuances in that decision. Personally i would love to see an eventual
Angular 2 fork with an implementation using the Dart Dev Compiler )

â¢ Dartium: Simply needs an update to ensure a great debugging experience.

*Positives: *

â¢ Angular 2 Dart is looking great.
â¢ There are a handful of really solid MVC server frameworks.
â¢ Team is super responsive on github/stackoverflow.
â¢ WebStorm integration is getting better and better.
â¢ The language itself is still a pleasure to work with
â¢ async await makes me happy every time i use it

Post by KÃ©vin Platel
I agree with Kasper Peulen, actually i feel like "It's looks like
something really awesome will happen shortly, but now i don't know exactly
what to do" between angular1 and angular2 or polymer 0.16 (0.5 js version)
and the coming 0.17 (1.0 js version ?) it's look like a transition period,
the same thing for sky and dart on mobile, the sky framework will be web
compatible ? would it be possible to create a web binding ?
I feel confident for the future of Dart, be now it's pretty hard to
convince someone to go on Dart for the web for more than a simple website
without the real support of the big web framework.
KÃ©vin

Post by Jan Mostert
I quite like it that there is no framework being forced down your throat
and that you have multiple options in case you do want to use a framework.
I currently build my own "framework" using nothing but dart:html, gives
me exactly what I need without the extra overhead.

Post by Kasper Peulen
The tiny boxes didn't really allow long text, so I put here a short
summary of my feedback for Dart.
One thing I love about Dart compared to javascript, is that there are
not too many options. Especially in places where you don't want too many
options, like how to import a library. No choice, using jquery or not,
everyone just seem to use dart:html.
Also Dart is quite opinionated in areas where things are more a matter
of taste. Like the dart style guide. Or actively recommending Webstorm as
editor. I like that as well. I think especially if you don't have an
opinion yet about that, you can just look at what Dart recommends. And if
you already have a strong opinion, you are free to use something else (some
other style preferences, or use an other editor).
For javascript, there are like 20 different opinions, 20 different
tastes for every tiny thing. One likes to use jquery, one doesn't like it.
The other likes to style code like this, the other likes that. One like
bower, the other likes to use just npm. And there is no really clear
"winner", no clear "standard". As there is no javascript team that says,
let's just all use npm as package manager from now on (instead of bower).
So for me, Dart feels like some kind of safe land, isolated from the
horror of javascript. You want to manipulate the dom, use dart:html. You
want to write a command line app ? Use args library. But... here comes my
negative feedback. At this moment, there is no clear direction what kind of
web framework to use with Dart. Or if you don't use such kind of
framework/library, how to structure your app. In the past it seemed to be
polymer. If you google for how to write a web app in dart, you get many old
references to polymer. But in april, the dart team announced that angular 2
will be the recommended framework. But basicly that means that from april
to now, there is no direction from the dart team how to write your web app.
And I don't know when angular 2 will come out, but I think this will be the
same situation for some months then.
I have some friends that are interested in building webapps/websites,
but with no prior knowledge, and don't really want to spend months figuring
everything out. But to be honest, I don't recommend them dart yet, because
of this reason. And this is coming from a dart fanboy! What I tell them
that that javascript is quite some horror, but that polymer 1 makes
everything quite a little bit nicer, and it is easy to make something quite
good looking with polymer 1. And that for Dart you better wait until end
2015/begin 2016.

Post by Don Olmstead
Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues
with Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other
questions are phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a
Strongly Disagree. Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time and fill
out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart? You
can fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
Kasper
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Frank Pepermans

2015-09-02 05:52:02 UTC

Permalink

Very much agreed on the branding, it is currently near impossible to sell
Dart as a solution for new projects. I often get stuck in these infinite
loop questions when trying to pitch it:

- Dart is confused with Typescript
- Google will abandon Dart, dropping chrome VM
- No easy escape path to drop Dart halfway through development should it die
- JS and Dart interop concerns
- Angular and Typescript is seen as another sign of Dart being dead
- Why Dart over any other language that I know that compiles to JS

Post by Jack Murphy
I responded with comments similar to Kaspers.
*Places For Improvement: *
â¢ Branding: After the Chrome VM strategy shift there's a lot of bad info
floating around the web. Dart really needs some advocacy out of Google.
For me, the Dart brand is the hardest part on selling it for internal use.
People now associate Dart with the "no chrome vm" language. When trying to
sell it, you start at a deficit. This is coupled with the Angular team
using TypeScript instead if Dart.
(I think people in the community understand that the transpiled output
doesn't yield the readable code required for a project like angular - but
that was never widely emphasized. I dont think the web at large understand
the nuances in that decision. Personally i would love to see an eventual
Angular 2 fork with an implementation using the Dart Dev Compiler )
â¢ Dartium: Simply needs an update to ensure a great debugging experience.
*Positives: *
â¢ Angular 2 Dart is looking great.
â¢ There are a handful of really solid MVC server frameworks.
â¢ Team is super responsive on github/stackoverflow.
â¢ WebStorm integration is getting better and better.
â¢ The language itself is still a pleasure to work with
â¢ async await makes me happy every time i use it

Post by Jan Mostert
I quite like it that there is no framework being forced down your throat
and that you have multiple options in case you do want to use a framework.
I currently build my own "framework" using nothing but dart:html, gives
me exactly what I need without the extra overhead.

Post by Kasper Peulen
The tiny boxes didn't really allow long text, so I put here a short
summary of my feedback for Dart.
One thing I love about Dart compared to javascript, is that there are
not too many options. Especially in places where you don't want too many
options, like how to import a library. No choice, using jquery or not,
everyone just seem to use dart:html.
Also Dart is quite opinionated in areas where things are more a matter
of taste. Like the dart style guide. Or actively recommending Webstorm as
editor. I like that as well. I think especially if you don't have an
opinion yet about that, you can just look at what Dart recommends. And if
you already have a strong opinion, you are free to use something else (some
other style preferences, or use an other editor).
For javascript, there are like 20 different opinions, 20 different
tastes for every tiny thing. One likes to use jquery, one doesn't like it.
The other likes to style code like this, the other likes that. One like
bower, the other likes to use just npm. And there is no really clear
"winner", no clear "standard". As there is no javascript team that says,
let's just all use npm as package manager from now on (instead of bower).
So for me, Dart feels like some kind of safe land, isolated from the
horror of javascript. You want to manipulate the dom, use dart:html. You
want to write a command line app ? Use args library. But... here comes my
negative feedback. At this moment, there is no clear direction what kind of
web framework to use with Dart. Or if you don't use such kind of
framework/library, how to structure your app. In the past it seemed to be
polymer. If you google for how to write a web app in dart, you get many old
references to polymer. But in april, the dart team announced that angular 2
will be the recommended framework. But basicly that means that from april
to now, there is no direction from the dart team how to write your web app.
And I don't know when angular 2 will come out, but I think this will be the
same situation for some months then.
I have some friends that are interested in building webapps/websites,
but with no prior knowledge, and don't really want to spend months figuring
everything out. But to be honest, I don't recommend them dart yet, because
of this reason. And this is coming from a dart fanboy! What I tell them
that that javascript is quite some horror, but that polymer 1 makes
everything quite a little bit nicer, and it is easy to make something quite
good looking with polymer 1. And that for Dart you better wait until end
2015/begin 2016.

Post by Don Olmstead
Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues
with Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other
questions are phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a
Strongly Disagree. Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time
and fill out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart? You
can fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
Kasper
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Eduardo Teixeira Dias

2015-09-02 14:29:17 UTC

Permalink

I got really burned last year with AngularDart.

I sold to customers the advantages of investing early in dart:
- AngularDart in particular and the future integrarion with polymer and
paper elements.

My argument was "When Dart VM support in chrome became a reality you will
be well positioned". The solutions were EComemerce B2B "we were in position
to install chrome in all the customers". The other case was development of
an internal ERP.

We were hammering with prÃ© 1.0 AngularDart versions and then some insane
person at google just cancelled AngularDart.

- No good integration with polymer.
- No Paper Elements
- No AngularMaterial
- No roadmap, no nothing

Just a vague new promise "Angular2"

Dart is an excellent language but the PR mismanagement is appalling. And
the Angular past decisions are bad signs for dart developers.

I continue playing with angular2 "Dart" and with Dart on the server
*Redstone*.

But I'm not selling it for any one, at least for now...

Let's see how Angular2 + AngularMaterial will look like from a Dart
developer point of view.

Please Google stop the insane "U" turns with Dart strategy.

Post by Frank Pepermans
Very much agreed on the branding, it is currently near impossible to sell
Dart as a solution for new projects. I often get stuck in these infinite
- Dart is confused with Typescript
- Google will abandon Dart, dropping chrome VM
- No easy escape path to drop Dart halfway through development should it die
- JS and Dart interop concerns
- Angular and Typescript is seen as another sign of Dart being dead
- Why Dart over any other language that I know that compiles to JS

Post by Jack Murphy
I responded with comments similar to Kaspers.
*Places For Improvement: *
â¢ Branding: After the Chrome VM strategy shift there's a lot of bad info
floating around the web. Dart really needs some advocacy out of Google.
For me, the Dart brand is the hardest part on selling it for internal use.
People now associate Dart with the "no chrome vm" language. When trying
to sell it, you start at a deficit. This is coupled with the Angular team
using TypeScript instead if Dart.
(I think people in the community understand that the transpiled output
doesn't yield the readable code required for a project like angular - but
that was never widely emphasized. I dont think the web at large understand
the nuances in that decision. Personally i would love to see an eventual
Angular 2 fork with an implementation using the Dart Dev Compiler )
â¢ Dartium: Simply needs an update to ensure a great debugging experience.
*Positives: *
â¢ Angular 2 Dart is looking great.
â¢ There are a handful of really solid MVC server frameworks.
â¢ Team is super responsive on github/stackoverflow.
â¢ WebStorm integration is getting better and better.
â¢ The language itself is still a pleasure to work with
â¢ async await makes me happy every time i use it

Post by Jan Mostert
I quite like it that there is no framework being forced down your
throat and that you have multiple options in case you do want to use a
framework.
I currently build my own "framework" using nothing but dart:html, gives
me exactly what I need without the extra overhead.

Post by Kasper Peulen
The tiny boxes didn't really allow long text, so I put here a short
summary of my feedback for Dart.
One thing I love about Dart compared to javascript, is that there are
not too many options. Especially in places where you don't want too many
options, like how to import a library. No choice, using jquery or not,
everyone just seem to use dart:html.
Also Dart is quite opinionated in areas where things are more a matter
of taste. Like the dart style guide. Or actively recommending Webstorm as
editor. I like that as well. I think especially if you don't have an
opinion yet about that, you can just look at what Dart recommends. And if
you already have a strong opinion, you are free to use something else (some
other style preferences, or use an other editor).
For javascript, there are like 20 different opinions, 20 different
tastes for every tiny thing. One likes to use jquery, one doesn't like it.
The other likes to style code like this, the other likes that. One like
bower, the other likes to use just npm. And there is no really clear
"winner", no clear "standard". As there is no javascript team that says,
let's just all use npm as package manager from now on (instead of bower).
So for me, Dart feels like some kind of safe land, isolated from the
horror of javascript. You want to manipulate the dom, use dart:html. You
want to write a command line app ? Use args library. But... here comes my
negative feedback. At this moment, there is no clear direction what kind of
web framework to use with Dart. Or if you don't use such kind of
framework/library, how to structure your app. In the past it seemed to be
polymer. If you google for how to write a web app in dart, you get many old
references to polymer. But in april, the dart team announced that angular 2
will be the recommended framework. But basicly that means that from april
to now, there is no direction from the dart team how to write your web app.
And I don't know when angular 2 will come out, but I think this will be the
same situation for some months then.
I have some friends that are interested in building webapps/websites,
but with no prior knowledge, and don't really want to spend months figuring
everything out. But to be honest, I don't recommend them dart yet, because
of this reason. And this is coming from a dart fanboy! What I tell them
that that javascript is quite some horror, but that polymer 1 makes
everything quite a little bit nicer, and it is easy to make something quite
good looking with polymer 1. And that for Dart you better wait until end
2015/begin 2016.

Post by Don Olmstead
Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues
with Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other
questions are phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a
Strongly Disagree. Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time
and fill out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart?
You can fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
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------------------------------------------
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Tel: 11 3828-1281
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192

Joel Trottier-Hébert

2015-09-02 19:13:33 UTC

Permalink

This x1000000. Thanks Eduardo for wording exactly what I think.

I continue playing with angular2 "Dart" and with Dart on the server

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias
*Redstone*.
But I'm not selling it for any one, at least for now...

I can't wait to be selling it again though.

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 10:29:22 AM UTC-4, Eduardo Teixeira Dias

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias
I got really burned last year with AngularDart.
- AngularDart in particular and the future integrarion with polymer and
paper elements.
My argument was "When Dart VM support in chrome became a reality you will
be well positioned". The solutions were EComemerce B2B "we were in position
to install chrome in all the customers". The other case was development of
an internal ERP.
We were hammering with prÃ© 1.0 AngularDart versions and then some insane
person at google just cancelled AngularDart.
- No good integration with polymer.
- No Paper Elements
- No AngularMaterial
- No roadmap, no nothing
Just a vague new promise "Angular2"
Dart is an excellent language but the PR mismanagement is appalling. And
the Angular past decisions are bad signs for dart developers.
I continue playing with angular2 "Dart" and with Dart on the server
*Redstone*.
But I'm not selling it for any one, at least for now...
Let's see how Angular2 + AngularMaterial will look like from a Dart
developer point of view.
Please Google stop the insane "U" turns with Dart strategy.

Post by Jack Murphy
I responded with comments similar to Kaspers.
*Places For Improvement: *
â¢ Branding: After the Chrome VM strategy shift there's a lot of bad info
floating around the web. Dart really needs some advocacy out of Google.
For me, the Dart brand is the hardest part on selling it for internal use.
People now associate Dart with the "no chrome vm" language. When trying
to sell it, you start at a deficit. This is coupled with the Angular team
using TypeScript instead if Dart.
(I think people in the community understand that the transpiled output
doesn't yield the readable code required for a project like angular - but
that was never widely emphasized. I dont think the web at large understand
the nuances in that decision. Personally i would love to see an eventual
Angular 2 fork with an implementation using the Dart Dev Compiler )
â¢ Dartium: Simply needs an update to ensure a great debugging experience.
*Positives: *
â¢ Angular 2 Dart is looking great.
â¢ There are a handful of really solid MVC server frameworks.
â¢ Team is super responsive on github/stackoverflow.
â¢ WebStorm integration is getting better and better.
â¢ The language itself is still a pleasure to work with
â¢ async await makes me happy every time i use it

Post by Jan Mostert
I quite like it that there is no framework being forced down your
throat and that you have multiple options in case you do want to use a
framework.
I currently build my own "framework" using nothing but dart:html,
gives me exactly what I need without the extra overhead.

Post by Kasper Peulen
The tiny boxes didn't really allow long text, so I put here a short
summary of my feedback for Dart.
One thing I love about Dart compared to javascript, is that there are
not too many options. Especially in places where you don't want too many
options, like how to import a library. No choice, using jquery or not,
everyone just seem to use dart:html.
Also Dart is quite opinionated in areas where things are more a
matter of taste. Like the dart style guide. Or actively recommending
Webstorm as editor. I like that as well. I think especially if you don't
have an opinion yet about that, you can just look at what Dart recommends.
And if you already have a strong opinion, you are free to use something
else (some other style preferences, or use an other editor).
For javascript, there are like 20 different opinions, 20 different
tastes for every tiny thing. One likes to use jquery, one doesn't like it.
The other likes to style code like this, the other likes that. One like
bower, the other likes to use just npm. And there is no really clear
"winner", no clear "standard". As there is no javascript team that says,
let's just all use npm as package manager from now on (instead of bower).
So for me, Dart feels like some kind of safe land, isolated from the
horror of javascript. You want to manipulate the dom, use dart:html. You
want to write a command line app ? Use args library. But... here comes my
negative feedback. At this moment, there is no clear direction what kind of
web framework to use with Dart. Or if you don't use such kind of
framework/library, how to structure your app. In the past it seemed to be
polymer. If you google for how to write a web app in dart, you get many old
references to polymer. But in april, the dart team announced that angular 2
will be the recommended framework. But basicly that means that from april
to now, there is no direction from the dart team how to write your web app.
And I don't know when angular 2 will come out, but I think this will be the
same situation for some months then.
I have some friends that are interested in building webapps/websites,
but with no prior knowledge, and don't really want to spend months figuring
everything out. But to be honest, I don't recommend them dart yet, because
of this reason. And this is coming from a dart fanboy! What I tell them
that that javascript is quite some horror, but that polymer 1 makes
everything quite a little bit nicer, and it is easy to make something quite
good looking with polymer 1. And that for Dart you better wait until end
2015/begin 2016.

Post by Don Olmstead
Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around
bugs/issues with Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the
other questions are phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants
a Strongly Disagree. Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time
and fill out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart?
You can fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
For other discussions, see
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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--
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--
Kasper
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------------------------------------------
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Tel: 11 3828-1281
Cel: 11 9 9246-4192

Daniel Joyce

2015-09-02 20:32:01 UTC

Permalink

The death of the Chrome Dev Editor has stopped development of Dart wrappers
for the chrome APIs. They are buggy, and well you all know my complaints.

I am now porting my 3D printer slicer/controller to TypeScript. If I need
Async/Await to bump up responsiveness I will roll in support with Traceur
or other library.

Dart is nice, but I am now 'wary' of it surviving. Its also unfamiliar
enough that getting our front end dev up to speed vs TypeScript or vanilla
es6 is a definite drag outside of other possible productivity benefits. We
wrote the app as two backend engineers forced to do so out of immediate
need, but the interop story being very rough is a pain point especially for
a dev coming in and wanting to use a javascript lib to workaround android
webview issues, and no such lib exists in dart.

Post by Joel Trottier-HÃ©bert
This x1000000. Thanks Eduardo for wording exactly what I think.
I continue playing with angular2 "Dart" and with Dart on the server

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias
*Redstone*.
But I'm not selling it for any one, at least for now...

I can't wait to be selling it again though.
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 10:29:22 AM UTC-4, Eduardo Teixeira

Very much agreed on the branding, it is currently near impossible to sell

Post by Eduardo Teixeira Dias

Post by Frank Pepermans
Dart as a solution for new projects. I often get stuck in these infinite
- Dart is confused with Typescript
- Google will abandon Dart, dropping chrome VM
- No easy escape path to drop Dart halfway through development should it die
- JS and Dart interop concerns
- Angular and Typescript is seen as another sign of Dart being dead
- Why Dart over any other language that I know that compiles to JS

I responded with comments similar to Kaspers.

Post by Frank Pepermans

Post by Jack Murphy
*Places For Improvement: *
â¢ Branding: After the Chrome VM strategy shift there's a lot of bad
info floating around the web. Dart really needs some advocacy out of
Google. For me, the Dart brand is the hardest part on selling it for
internal use.
People now associate Dart with the "no chrome vm" language. When trying
to sell it, you start at a deficit. This is coupled with the Angular team
using TypeScript instead if Dart.
(I think people in the community understand that the transpiled output
doesn't yield the readable code required for a project like angular - but
that was never widely emphasized. I dont think the web at large understand
the nuances in that decision. Personally i would love to see an eventual
Angular 2 fork with an implementation using the Dart Dev Compiler )
â¢ Dartium: Simply needs an update to ensure a great debugging experience.
*Positives: *
â¢ Angular 2 Dart is looking great.
â¢ There are a handful of really solid MVC server frameworks.
â¢ Team is super responsive on github/stackoverflow.
â¢ WebStorm integration is getting better and better.
â¢ The language itself is still a pleasure to work with
â¢ async await makes me happy every time i use it

I agree with Kasper Peulen, actually i feel like "It's looks like

Post by Jack Murphy

Post by KÃ©vin Platel
something really awesome will happen shortly, but now i don't know exactly
what to do" between angular1 and angular2 or polymer 0.16 (0.5 js version)
and the coming 0.17 (1.0 js version ?) it's look like a transition period,
the same thing for sky and dart on mobile, the sky framework will be web
compatible ? would it be possible to create a web binding ?
I feel confident for the future of Dart, be now it's pretty hard to
convince someone to go on Dart for the web for more than a simple website
without the real support of the big web framework.
KÃ©vin

I quite like it that there is no framework being forced down your

Post by KÃ©vin Platel

Post by Jan Mostert
throat and that you have multiple options in case you do want to use a
framework.
I currently build my own "framework" using nothing but dart:html,
gives me exactly what I need without the extra overhead.

The tiny boxes didn't really allow long text, so I put here a short

Post by Jan Mostert

Post by Kasper Peulen
summary of my feedback for Dart.
One thing I love about Dart compared to javascript, is that there
are not too many options. Especially in places where you don't want too
many options, like how to import a library. No choice, using jquery or not,
everyone just seem to use dart:html.
Also Dart is quite opinionated in areas where things are more a
matter of taste. Like the dart style guide. Or actively recommending
Webstorm as editor. I like that as well. I think especially if you don't
have an opinion yet about that, you can just look at what Dart recommends.
And if you already have a strong opinion, you are free to use something
else (some other style preferences, or use an other editor).
For javascript, there are like 20 different opinions, 20 different
tastes for every tiny thing. One likes to use jquery, one doesn't like it.
The other likes to style code like this, the other likes that. One like
bower, the other likes to use just npm. And there is no really clear
"winner", no clear "standard". As there is no javascript team that says,
let's just all use npm as package manager from now on (instead of bower).
So for me, Dart feels like some kind of safe land, isolated from the
horror of javascript. You want to manipulate the dom, use dart:html. You
want to write a command line app ? Use args library. But... here comes my
negative feedback. At this moment, there is no clear direction what kind of
web framework to use with Dart. Or if you don't use such kind of
framework/library, how to structure your app. In the past it seemed to be
polymer. If you google for how to write a web app in dart, you get many old
references to polymer. But in april, the dart team announced that angular 2
will be the recommended framework. But basicly that means that from april
to now, there is no direction from the dart team how to write your web app.
And I don't know when angular 2 will come out, but I think this will be the
same situation for some months then.
I have some friends that are interested in building
webapps/websites, but with no prior knowledge, and don't really want to
spend months figuring everything out. But to be honest, I don't recommend
them dart yet, because of this reason. And this is coming from a dart
fanboy! What I tell them that that javascript is quite some horror, but
that polymer 1 makes everything quite a little bit nicer, and it is easy to
make something quite good looking with polymer 1. And that for Dart you
better wait until end 2015/begin 2016.

Just a nit but the "I spend too much time working around bugs/issues

Post by Kasper Peulen

Post by Don Olmstead
with Dart for the web." variant is a bit weird. All the other
questions are phrased so Strongly Agree is good while that one wants a
Strongly Disagree. Maybe it should be rephrased in the future?

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 11:20 AM, 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc <
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time

Post by Don Olmstead

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
and fill out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart?
You can fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
--
For other discussions, see
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
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--
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Don Olmstead

2015-09-03 01:07:52 UTC

Permalink

I don't think it helps that there really aren't any more developer
advocates for Dart running around to clear up any confusion. It seems
pretty obvious there's a huge commitment internally if ads is using Dart
but outside of the Dev Summit I don't really see any advocacy.

There's a Polymer summit coming up and I would bet there's no Polymer.dart
presence like there wasn't with the code lab events they were doing across
the country. Don't follow Angular so not sure what their level of
commitment is to showing the Dart side.

Also to be honest web devs are very hostile towards Dart. I did a talk at a
web dev conference on Dart and the conference let attendees rate the bubble
talks and mine was pretty damn low. Managed to get it in despite that and
had some really interested parties at the talk but it barely got through.

I do feel things will get much better when the dev_compiler drops as the
all or nothing proposition of Dart was pretty off putting. At work I can
sneak Dart in for little workflow things and demos but nothing production.
If the output of dev_compiler works well that might be something I could
change.

Frank> - Dart is confused with Typescript
Frank> - Google will abandon Dart, dropping chrome VM
Frank> - No easy escape path to drop Dart halfway through development
should it die
Frank> - JS and Dart interop concerns
Frank> - Angular and Typescript is seen as another sign of Dart being dead
Frank> - Why Dart over any other language that I know that compiles to
Frank> JS
I address a lot of these points in my "brief introduction to dart" from
http://www.slideshare.net/RandalSchwartz/a-brief-introduction-to-dart
Video linked from there. Maybe Seth can add this to the Dart media
page.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777
0095
Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
Still trying to think of something clever for the fourth line of this .sig
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Don Olmstead

2015-09-03 01:10:59 UTC

Permalink

Oh also @Bob

"I don't spend enough time working around bugs/issues with Dart for the
web."

That gives me flashbacks to pre M1. These kids don't know how easy they
have it now with their async/await. Editors that are stable so you can get
work done cause the analyzer doesn't start choking after a few thousands of
lines of code. Debuggers that work.

Need to go do some Golang programming where you just printf all the things
like when I first learned to program and didn't know what the hell a
debugger was and why I'd want it ;)

Post by Don Olmstead
I don't think it helps that there really aren't any more developer
advocates for Dart running around to clear up any confusion. It seems
pretty obvious there's a huge commitment internally if ads is using Dart
but outside of the Dev Summit I don't really see any advocacy.
There's a Polymer summit coming up and I would bet there's no Polymer.dart
presence like there wasn't with the code lab events they were doing across
the country. Don't follow Angular so not sure what their level of
commitment is to showing the Dart side.
Also to be honest web devs are very hostile towards Dart. I did a talk at
a web dev conference on Dart and the conference let attendees rate the
bubble talks and mine was pretty damn low. Managed to get it in despite
that and had some really interested parties at the talk but it barely got
through.
I do feel things will get much better when the dev_compiler drops as the
all or nothing proposition of Dart was pretty off putting. At work I can
sneak Dart in for little workflow things and demos but nothing production.
If the output of dev_compiler works well that might be something I could
change.

'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

2015-09-03 18:20:28 UTC

Permalink

Post by Don Olmstead
That gives me flashbacks to pre M1. These kids don't know how easy they
have it now with their async/await. Editors that are stable so you can get
work done cause the analyzer doesn't start choking after a few thousands of
lines of code. Debuggers that work.

You should have seen things before we publicly launched. :D

- bob

Rat Jo

2015-09-03 04:55:54 UTC

Permalink

We got promise that the Dart team would put effort into generating easier
to debug Js and support for js for server (nodejs), but we are still
waiting and there is no sign of anything coming.

As for Google dropping Dart. I consider it as being something already done,
but Dart for me is mature enough to use. I just try to not rely on
pub.dartlang.com because I expect it to die any day. If Google do drop it,
the language will still work, but pub.dartlang.com will be killed.

I did agree with the fact that Dart will not be integrated in Chrome, but
since that news, this forum just like the language has been almost deserted.

Forever, the drop for the support of Dartium have been way to fast...
Compiled Js is still a pain to debug.

Günter Zöchbauer

2015-09-03 05:24:14 UTC

Permalink

Post by Rat Jo
We got promise that the Dart team would put effort into generating easier
to debug Js and support for js for server (nodejs), but we are still
waiting and there is no sign of anything coming.
As for Google dropping Dart. I consider it as being something already
done, but Dart for me is mature enough to use. I just try to not rely on
pub.dartlang.com because I expect it to die any day. If Google do drop
it, the language will still work, but pub.dartlang.com will be killed.
I did agree with the fact that Dart will not be integrated in Chrome, but
since that news, this forum just like the language has been almost deserted.

The Slack Dart channel is quite
active https://dartlang-slack.herokuapp.com/ (250+ users).
Summer time was always somewhat quiet here. Much more activity here lately
:)

Post by Rat Jo
Forever, the drop for the support of Dartium have been way to fast...
Compiled Js is still a pain to debug.

Dartium still feels supported to me and a new Dartium roll is work in
progress from what I saw in discussions in the GitHub repo.

Post by Rat Jo

Cristian Garcia

2015-09-03 13:27:59 UTC

Permalink

Every language is born with a dream/promise, a characteristic that will
give you an advantage over any other language, this could be a capability
of the VM/runtime, special syntax, and libraries. This dream is what drives
users to get involved and commit to the language. Please take everything I
say as a user psychology analysis and not about engineering.

Here is what I feel about Dart:
1. It failed on its initial promise of replacing JS when the Dart VM didn't
make it into Chrome, and now its depending on the more experimental mobile
development to generate enthusiasms. The easier to debug JS and new JS
interop are being worked on but not a word is said.
2. It never got a "killer" framework on either client or server side.
Neither Angular or Polymer have taken of in about more than a year of
existence and always feel like second class citizens of their JS
counterpart (Angular 2 might change this). Rails popularized Ruby, Dart
doesn't have a full featured server framework (and I say this as part of
the Redstone team).
3. At my job I am investigating Elixir with Phoenix, the language and the
framework are written by the core team who are web developers that want to
replace their current Ruby apps, they not only develop the language, they
also produce all the tools they need for actual development (template
system, web framework, database integration, middle ware, etc). It feels
like a really integrated experience even though its a really young
language. The same story occurs with C# and ASP, they have a really
integrated experience. Dart has more engineers than Elixir working but less
REALLY IMPORTANT libraries? Say a template system or an ORM? E.g. I
currently use Mustache for Dart which is not exactly an advanced template
language, not really happy about that.

Please, don't take this the wrong way. I love Dart as a language, love
Redstone's architecture and my MVC plugin, with it I abandoned Dart as a
replacement for JS and currently render pure html on the server, not having
to compile feels a lot nicer than fighting dart2js bugs. Sadly I do not see
myself using Dart in 2 years unless I could develop mobile apps with it or
had to build a huge web app/game (which I don't do for a living).

The Slack Dart channel is quite active
https://dartlang-slack.herokuapp.com/ (250+ users).
Summer time was always somewhat quiet here. Much more activity here lately
:)

Post by Rat Jo
Forever, the drop for the support of Dartium have been way to fast...
Compiled Js is still a pain to debug.

Dartium still feels supported to me and a new Dartium roll is work in
progress from what I saw in discussions in the GitHub repo.

Post by Rat Jo

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Yissachar Radcliffe

2015-09-03 14:58:27 UTC

Permalink

I've given up trying to sell Dart to other developers. Dart has such a negative perception that the conversation degenerates quickly.

For my own projects I still use Dart since it makes me most productive. I wish the web framework situation would be sorted out though. Really I would be more comfortable if Dart had its own 100% pure Dart framework instead of trying to track popular JS frameworks. There would be a greater feeling of ownership, as well as more freedom to innovate, and less reliance on other projects development milestones.

ravi teja

2015-09-03 15:13:17 UTC

Permalink

@Yissachar I was wondering about the same thing. Was discussing about it
here:
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!msg/web/LPJpEvh5cgU/-z88Mn5ZAQAJ

It is surprising how compatibility with JS frameworks is given more
preference than leveraging strengths of Dart. IMO biggest paradox of Dart
is: If you try to create a language that is better than an existing bad
language but make it worse by trying to stay compatible with the bad
language, how would you end up with a better language?

Post by Yissachar Radcliffe
I've given up trying to sell Dart to other developers. Dart has such a
negative perception that the conversation degenerates quickly.
For my own projects I still use Dart since it makes me most productive. I
wish the web framework situation would be sorted out though. Really I would
be more comfortable if Dart had its own 100% pure Dart framework instead of
trying to track popular JS frameworks. There would be a greater feeling of
ownership, as well as more freedom to innovate, and less reliance on other
projects development milestones.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Lex Berezhny

2015-09-03 15:19:16 UTC

Permalink

What are you guys looking to get from a framework?

Can't you just use plain 'dart:html', specifically custom elements?

That's going to be super light weight and very flexible.
â
- lex

ravi teja

2015-09-03 15:22:11 UTC

Permalink

@lex was that sarcastic? Because it sounds like, why dont we go back to
2000 BC and live in caves happily ever after :P.

Post by Lex Berezhny
What are you guys looking to get from a framework?
Can't you just use plain 'dart:html', specifically custom elements?
That's going to be super light weight and very flexible.
â
- lex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Lex Berezhny

2015-09-03 15:30:58 UTC

Permalink

Actually, I'm not being sarcastic at all. I've built a pretty sophisticated
document proposal builder using just dart:html with custom elements. I
ended up with very clean, structured code.

If I remember correctly, that was the whole point of Polymer initially: to
bring custom elements to all browsers. And now that most browsers support
custom elements just fine (and I dart:html gives you the necessary
portability to make your stuff work well on all of them).

Polymer is like a 'proprietary' version of dart:html custom elements. Why
not just use the real thing? Granted, you won't get the pre-made material
design elements out of the box but there are plenty of pure CSS frameworks
that will give you material design ontop of your pure dart:html custom
elements.

- lex

Post by ravi teja
@lex was that sarcastic? Because it sounds like, why dont we go back to
2000 BC and live in caves happily ever after :P.

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Varga, Dániel

2015-09-03 15:31:16 UTC

Permalink

Post by ravi teja
@lex was that sarcastic? Because it sounds like, why dont we go back to
2000 BC and live in caves happily ever after :P.

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Joel Trottier-Hébert

2015-09-03 15:32:33 UTC

Permalink

@Lex mind showing us some code? I'd be interested in seeing that.

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc

Post by ravi teja
@lex was that sarcastic? Because it sounds like, why dont we go back to
2000 BC and live in caves happily ever after :P.

Post by Lex Berezhny
What are you guys looking to get from a framework?
Can't you just use plain 'dart:html', specifically custom elements?
That's going to be super light weight and very flexible.
â
- lex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Lex Berezhny

2015-09-03 15:35:40 UTC

Permalink

Yeah, this subject has already been discussed a while ago, here is the old
thread:

https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/misc/polymer$20structure$20without$20polymer/misc/-z_8sVp_uPY/zuHwyT0PD54J

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Joel Trottier-HÃ©bert <

Post by Joel Trottier-HÃ©bert
@Lex mind showing us some code? I'd be interested in seeing that.

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc

Post by ravi teja
@lex was that sarcastic? Because it sounds like, why dont we go back to
2000 BC and live in caves happily ever after :P.

Post by Lex Berezhny
What are you guys looking to get from a framework?
Can't you just use plain 'dart:html', specifically custom elements?
That's going to be super light weight and very flexible.
â
- lex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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tatumizer-v0.2

2015-09-03 15:52:00 UTC

Permalink

want to see no-framework framework?
http://facebook.github.io/react/

Note the title "A JavaScript *library* for building user interfaces"

React is a big deal, it really simplifies thinking about UI programming.
Same concept can be ported to dart, of course.

Lex Berezhny

2015-09-03 16:17:53 UTC

Permalink

The dart docs link in that thread is not working since it was all the way
from February.

Here is the updated link to registerElement, this one function essentially
replaces Polymer :-) (I am exaggerating a bit since Polymer also offers
material design and a bunch of other stuff, but if you get down to basics
then Polymer is essentially an "embrace and extend" version of
document.registerElement()).

https://api.dartlang.org/1.12.0/dart-html/HtmlDocument/registerElement.html

Post by Lex Berezhny
Yeah, this subject has already been discussed a while ago, here is the old
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/misc/polymer$20structure$20without$20polymer/misc/-z_8sVp_uPY/zuHwyT0PD54J
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Joel Trottier-HÃ©bert <

Post by Joel Trottier-HÃ©bert
@Lex mind showing us some code? I'd be interested in seeing that.

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc

Post by ravi teja
@lex was that sarcastic? Because it sounds like, why dont we go back to
2000 BC and live in caves happily ever after :P.

Post by Lex Berezhny
What are you guys looking to get from a framework?
Can't you just use plain 'dart:html', specifically custom elements?
That's going to be super light weight and very flexible.
â
- lex
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Петър Събев

2015-09-03 16:04:57 UTC

Permalink

I'm sorry to see so many negative comments about Dart. So I've decided to
share my thoughts and expirience. I'm developing intensively in Dart for
the last two years and have a project with ~ 600 000 loc's right now
(server and client - both with Dart). For me Dart gives exactly what
prommised - better tool for building and managing large scale enterprise
applications. The main advantage with Dart shines when your project gets
bigger. If you want to build something trivial - Dart is not the best
choice, but if you want to build a big enterprise level application and
want to feel confident about it's architecture, maintainability and
scalability I'm sure you would not go wrong with Dart.
We should not compare Dart as a client (javascript) replacement or a tool
for server side development (node.js), we should look at Dart as a complete
platform for building scalable web applications.
What we have with Dart as a base is:
- great engineered language
- great development expirience
- pub and packages
- client and server side development (linux, windows, ios, soon on mobile)
- small (hope to get bigger soon) but nice community.
Dart offers the best foundation for building fully fledged web applications
compared to alternatives.
About the missing of robust frameworks. I really don't see the hype around
these frameworks. Why would I put such a dependency on my project? For me
Dart plays the role of a framework. Using small and tightly focused
libraries is the better choice for scaling and we have pub for that - use
more and small dependencies for being less dependant!!! So speaking of
libraries - maybe the is the main disadvantage for now - the relatively
small number of libraries, but this is not a Dart failure, it just needs
more time.

Scalable, productive app developmentScalable, productive app
developmentScalable,
productive app developmentScalable, productive app development

Post by Cristian Garcia
Every language is born with a dream/promise, a characteristic that will
give you an advantage over any other language, this could be a capability
of the VM/runtime, special syntax, and libraries. This dream is what drives
users to get involved and commit to the language. Please take everything I
say as a user psychology analysis and not about engineering.
1. It failed on its initial promise of replacing JS when the Dart VM
didn't make it into Chrome, and now its depending on the more experimental
mobile development to generate enthusiasms. The easier to debug JS and new
JS interop are being worked on but not a word is said.
2. It never got a "killer" framework on either client or server side.
Neither Angular or Polymer have taken of in about more than a year of
existence and always feel like second class citizens of their JS
counterpart (Angular 2 might change this). Rails popularized Ruby, Dart
doesn't have a full featured server framework (and I say this as part of
the Redstone team).
3. At my job I am investigating Elixir with Phoenix, the language and the
framework are written by the core team who are web developers that want to
replace their current Ruby apps, they not only develop the language, they
also produce all the tools they need for actual development (template
system, web framework, database integration, middle ware, etc). It feels
like a really integrated experience even though its a really young
language. The same story occurs with C# and ASP, they have a really
integrated experience. Dart has more engineers than Elixir working but less
REALLY IMPORTANT libraries? Say a template system or an ORM? E.g. I
currently use Mustache for Dart which is not exactly an advanced template
language, not really happy about that.
Please, don't take this the wrong way. I love Dart as a language, love
Redstone's architecture and my MVC plugin, with it I abandoned Dart as a
replacement for JS and currently render pure html on the server, not having
to compile feels a lot nicer than fighting dart2js bugs. Sadly I do not see
myself using Dart in 2 years unless I could develop mobile apps with it or
had to build a huge web app/game (which I don't do for a living).

Post by Rat Jo
We got promise that the Dart team would put effort into generating
easier to debug Js and support for js for server (nodejs), but we are still
waiting and there is no sign of anything coming.
As for Google dropping Dart. I consider it as being something already
done, but Dart for me is mature enough to use. I just try to not rely on
pub.dartlang.com because I expect it to die any day. If Google do drop
it, the language will still work, but pub.dartlang.com will be killed.
I did agree with the fact that Dart will not be integrated in Chrome,
but since that news, this forum just like the language has been almost
deserted.

The Slack Dart channel is quite active
https://dartlang-slack.herokuapp.com/ (250+ users).
Summer time was always somewhat quiet here. Much more activity here
lately :)

Post by Rat Jo
Forever, the drop for the support of Dartium have been way to fast...
Compiled Js is still a pain to debug.

Dartium still feels supported to me and a new Dartium roll is work in
progress from what I saw in discussions in the GitHub repo.

Post by Rat Jo

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Günter Zöchbauer

2015-09-03 17:20:30 UTC

Permalink

+1

The main interest in frameworks for me is fancy reusable components. This
is what I expect from Polymer and Angular. I'm not a web designer and
building my own components is a bad assignment of resources.
Otherwise nice summary about Dart :)

Post by ÐÐµÑÑÑ Ð¡ÑÐ±ÐµÐ²
I'm sorry to see so many negative comments about Dart. So I've decided to
share my thoughts and expirience. I'm developing intensively in Dart for
the last two years and have a project with ~ 600 000 loc's right now
(server and client - both with Dart). For me Dart gives exactly what
prommised - better tool for building and managing large scale enterprise
applications. The main advantage with Dart shines when your project gets
bigger. If you want to build something trivial - Dart is not the best
choice, but if you want to build a big enterprise level application and
want to feel confident about it's architecture, maintainability and
scalability I'm sure you would not go wrong with Dart.
We should not compare Dart as a client (javascript) replacement or a tool
for server side development (node.js), we should look at Dart as a complete
platform for building scalable web applications.
- great engineered language
- great development expirience
- pub and packages
- client and server side development (linux, windows, ios, soon on mobile)
- small (hope to get bigger soon) but nice community.
Dart offers the best foundation for building fully fledged web
applications compared to alternatives.
About the missing of robust frameworks. I really don't see the hype around
these frameworks. Why would I put such a dependency on my project? For me
Dart plays the role of a framework. Using small and tightly focused
libraries is the better choice for scaling and we have pub for that - use
more and small dependencies for being less dependant!!! So speaking of
libraries - maybe the is the main disadvantage for now - the relatively
small number of libraries, but this is not a Dart failure, it just needs
more time.
Scalable, productive app developmentScalable, productive app developmentScalable,
productive app developmentScalable, productive app development

Post by Rat Jo
We got promise that the Dart team would put effort into generating
easier to debug Js and support for js for server (nodejs), but we are still
waiting and there is no sign of anything coming.
As for Google dropping Dart. I consider it as being something already
done, but Dart for me is mature enough to use. I just try to not rely on
pub.dartlang.com because I expect it to die any day. If Google do drop
it, the language will still work, but pub.dartlang.com will be killed.
I did agree with the fact that Dart will not be integrated in Chrome,
but since that news, this forum just like the language has been almost
deserted.

The Slack Dart channel is quite active
https://dartlang-slack.herokuapp.com/ (250+ users).
Summer time was always somewhat quiet here. Much more activity here
lately :)

Post by Rat Jo
Forever, the drop for the support of Dartium have been way to fast...
Compiled Js is still a pain to debug.

Dartium still feels supported to me and a new Dartium roll is work in
progress from what I saw in discussions in the GitHub repo.

Post by Rat Jo

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Kasper Peulen

2015-09-03 17:24:38 UTC

Permalink

I would love to see tutorials how to best manage and organise your dart web
app without using a web framework !

Post by GÃ¼nter ZÃ¶chbauer
+1
The main interest in frameworks for me is fancy reusable components. This
is what I expect from Polymer and Angular. I'm not a web designer and
building my own components is a bad assignment of resources.
Otherwise nice summary about Dart :)

Post by ÐÐµÑÑÑ Ð¡ÑÐ±ÐµÐ²
I'm sorry to see so many negative comments about Dart. So I've decided to
share my thoughts and expirience. I'm developing intensively in Dart for
the last two years and have a project with ~ 600 000 loc's right now
(server and client - both with Dart). For me Dart gives exactly what
prommised - better tool for building and managing large scale enterprise
applications. The main advantage with Dart shines when your project gets
bigger. If you want to build something trivial - Dart is not the best
choice, but if you want to build a big enterprise level application and
want to feel confident about it's architecture, maintainability and
scalability I'm sure you would not go wrong with Dart.
We should not compare Dart as a client (javascript) replacement or a tool
for server side development (node.js), we should look at Dart as a complete
platform for building scalable web applications.
- great engineered language
- great development expirience
- pub and packages
- client and server side development (linux, windows, ios, soon on mobile)
- small (hope to get bigger soon) but nice community.
Dart offers the best foundation for building fully fledged web
applications compared to alternatives.
About the missing of robust frameworks. I really don't see the hype
around these frameworks. Why would I put such a dependency on my project?
For me Dart plays the role of a framework. Using small and tightly focused
libraries is the better choice for scaling and we have pub for that - use
more and small dependencies for being less dependant!!! So speaking of
libraries - maybe the is the main disadvantage for now - the relatively
small number of libraries, but this is not a Dart failure, it just needs
more time.
Scalable, productive app developmentScalable, productive app developmentScalable,
productive app developmentScalable, productive app development

Post by Cristian Garcia
Every language is born with a dream/promise, a characteristic that will
give you an advantage over any other language, this could be a capability
of the VM/runtime, special syntax, and libraries. This dream is what drives
users to get involved and commit to the language. Please take everything I
say as a user psychology analysis and not about engineering.
1. It failed on its initial promise of replacing JS when the Dart VM
didn't make it into Chrome, and now its depending on the more experimental
mobile development to generate enthusiasms. The easier to debug JS and new
JS interop are being worked on but not a word is said.
2. It never got a "killer" framework on either client or server side.
Neither Angular or Polymer have taken of in about more than a year of
existence and always feel like second class citizens of their JS
counterpart (Angular 2 might change this). Rails popularized Ruby, Dart
doesn't have a full featured server framework (and I say this as part of
the Redstone team).
3. At my job I am investigating Elixir with Phoenix, the language and
the framework are written by the core team who are web developers that want
to replace their current Ruby apps, they not only develop the language,
they also produce all the tools they need for actual development (template
system, web framework, database integration, middle ware, etc). It feels
like a really integrated experience even though its a really young
language. The same story occurs with C# and ASP, they have a really
integrated experience. Dart has more engineers than Elixir working but less
REALLY IMPORTANT libraries? Say a template system or an ORM? E.g. I
currently use Mustache for Dart which is not exactly an advanced template
language, not really happy about that.
Please, don't take this the wrong way. I love Dart as a language, love
Redstone's architecture and my MVC plugin, with it I abandoned Dart as a
replacement for JS and currently render pure html on the server, not having
to compile feels a lot nicer than fighting dart2js bugs. Sadly I do not see
myself using Dart in 2 years unless I could develop mobile apps with it or
had to build a huge web app/game (which I don't do for a living).

Post by Rat Jo
We got promise that the Dart team would put effort into generating
easier to debug Js and support for js for server (nodejs), but we are still
waiting and there is no sign of anything coming.
As for Google dropping Dart. I consider it as being something already
done, but Dart for me is mature enough to use. I just try to not rely on
pub.dartlang.com because I expect it to die any day. If Google do
drop it, the language will still work, but pub.dartlang.com will be
killed.
I did agree with the fact that Dart will not be integrated in Chrome,
but since that news, this forum just like the language has been almost
deserted.

The Slack Dart channel is quite active
https://dartlang-slack.herokuapp.com/ (250+ users).
Summer time was always somewhat quiet here. Much more activity here
lately :)

Post by Rat Jo
Forever, the drop for the support of Dartium have been way to fast...
Compiled Js is still a pain to debug.

Dartium still feels supported to me and a new Dartium roll is work in
progress from what I saw in discussions in the GitHub repo.

Post by Rat Jo

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--
Kasper

'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

2015-09-03 18:25:48 UTC

Permalink

Consistent effort is happening towards this, but it isn't very visible.
It's highly dependent on DDC so there's a big stack of tech that has to be
made (effectively an entirely new compiler to JS, static analysis rules,
etc.) that has to work before you can do anything useful with it. It's one
of those kinds of projects where for 99% of the time 0% of it works and
then at the very end it surfaces and it's there.

Post by Rat Jo
As for Google dropping Dart. I consider it as being something already
done, but Dart for me is mature enough to use.

Strangely enough, the Dart team is larger now than it has ever been. We
obviously have lots of real problems with external adoption, but internally
we are watching the amount of Dart code Googlers are writing grow very
quickly.

The challenge for us now is to make Dart relevant and useful to outside
users while still keeping those internal customers happy.

Post by Rat Jo
I just try to not rely on pub.dartlang.com because I expect it to die any
day. If Google do drop it, the language will still work, but
pub.dartlang.com will be killed.

pub.dartlang.org costs virtually nothing, so there's no reason we would
take it down. Also, our internal customers rely heavily on a number of
third party packages, so the existence of pub.dartlang.org is absolutely
required by the people who pay Dart's bills. It's not going anywhere.

Cheers!

- bob

Matthew Butler

2015-09-03 19:02:07 UTC

Permalink

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
...

Post by Rat Jo
As for Google dropping Dart. I consider it as being something already
done, but Dart for me is mature enough to use.

This is fun to hear :)

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
The challenge for us now is to make Dart relevant and useful to outside
users while still keeping those internal customers happy.

The DevRel dynamic seems to have changed since Dart was launch[ed/ing].
Intially Seth was very vocal in the community and spreading the gospel etc.
Then jj was doing some good stuff before he departed to Twitter. But since
that time, it feels that much of the DevRel stuff has been a lot quieter.
I'm not sure if they're concentrating more on internal customers, or
specifics with other large customers (eg WebStorm). But the quantity of
information seems to be quieting.

That said the team as a whole is still very active in the community which
I've always found to be one of the most appealing things about Dart. The
easy accessibility to the dev team who not just use but implement many of
the great things we use (and break).

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
...
Cheers!
- bob

Matt

'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

2015-09-03 19:49:00 UTC

Permalink

Post by Matthew Butler
The DevRel dynamic seems to have changed since Dart was launch[ed/ing].
Intially Seth was very vocal in the community and spreading the gospel etc.
Then jj was doing some good stuff before he departed to Twitter. But since
that time, it feels that much of the DevRel stuff has been a lot quieter.
I'm not sure if they're concentrating more on internal customers, or
specifics with other large customers (eg WebStorm). But the quantity of
information seems to be quieting.

A big part of it is that, yes, more of us are focused on keeping our
internal customers happy. With things like Angular2 and Sky, there is a
*lot* of work to be done in Dart to ensure that the developers and users of
those projects aren't blocked on us. A big chunk of the team is working on
that. The nice thing is that kind of work also benefits the external Dart
community (beyond the fact that Sky and Angular2 are themselves open
source).

I also think part of it is that we have real technical work that needs to
be done before we need to go out and start cheerleading for it. Drumming up
more attention for Dart wouldn't help us much given that DDC, JS interop,
Angular2, etc. are all still incomplete and in-progress. Once those mature,
you can expect to see a lot more PR.

Cheers!

- bob

Cristian Garcia

2015-09-03 21:36:06 UTC

Permalink

Dart is a little strange/alien for non-google users because of the
following aspect

There is no interest on google to build a "super" server + web framework
which does x and y easier than other frameworks like z and w. I see no
reason why there couldnt be a Rails/ASP/Django/Express for Dart that on top
of making REST, MVC (with Dart templates) and realtime a breeze, it also
auto compiles your Dart code after a files changes, takes code reusability
to higher levels, has native support for JSON, has nice json configuration,
scales using Isolates, has an ORM with migrations, etc. The thing is Google
internally probably needs non of this, but for us who don't work on a huge
web company, these commodities are what make you ship the next product
quickly. Its no wonder Dart is hard to sell to outside.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

A big part of it is that, yes, more of us are focused on keeping our
internal customers happy. With things like Angular2 and Sky, there is a
*lot* of work to be done in Dart to ensure that the developers and users
of those projects aren't blocked on us. A big chunk of the team is working
on that. The nice thing is that kind of work also benefits the external
Dart community (beyond the fact that Sky and Angular2 are themselves open
source).
I also think part of it is that we have real technical work that needs to
be done before we need to go out and start cheerleading for it. Drumming up
more attention for Dart wouldn't help us much given that DDC, JS interop,
Angular2, etc. are all still incomplete and in-progress. Once those mature,
you can expect to see a lot more PR.
Cheers!
- bob
--
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Jan Mostert

2015-09-03 21:36:38 UTC

Permalink

What is the status of Polymer Dart, is it in a place where it is almost
usable or is it still undergoing a lot of major changes from month to
month? The pre 0.5 release was changing so fast (as expected from a pre 1.0
release) that I eventually abandoned it for Bootstrap's CSS minus the JS
and Dart for the moving parts plus my own url manager and event system.
It actually feels great not being locked into a framework and Dart has so
far been solid with clear migration paths in the cases where there were
breaking chamges.
As somebody who haven't used Angular, I'm curious, what problems does the
framework solve which is much more tedious / difficult to solve with
straight dart:html?
On the server side, I'm sure there are a lot of missing libraries that will
emerge over time, it would be unfair to expect everything in Dart overnight
that Java had time to brew for 20 years.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

A big part of it is that, yes, more of us are focused on keeping our
internal customers happy. With things like Angular2 and Sky, there is a
*lot* of work to be done in Dart to ensure that the developers and users
of those projects aren't blocked on us. A big chunk of the team is working
on that. The nice thing is that kind of work also benefits the external
Dart community (beyond the fact that Sky and Angular2 are themselves open
source).
I also think part of it is that we have real technical work that needs to
be done before we need to go out and start cheerleading for it. Drumming up
more attention for Dart wouldn't help us much given that DDC, JS interop,
Angular2, etc. are all still incomplete and in-progress. Once those mature,
you can expect to see a lot more PR.
Cheers!
- bob
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

Anders Holmgren

2015-09-06 22:21:08 UTC

Permalink

It would be great to see Dart take off in a big way inside google. Hopefully people from those teams join the community, contributing to the conversation and to packages on pub.

I would also love to see Polymer Dart take the lion share of internal polymer apps once it gets to 1.0.

Roel Kersten

2015-09-05 07:39:07 UTC

Permalink

I think it is great Dart has made this far! Key for future succes will be:
dont go for optimal js interoperability but rely on js generation (new
vm?), focus on mobile and developing usefull apis (nfc, wearables,
blockchain, etc). most important; be clear about short and long term
roadmap.

Daniel Joyce

2015-09-05 16:16:18 UTC

Permalink

Interop with JavaScript needs to improve. For my personal project and due
to chrome api wrapper bugs I have jumped to typescript. So far it's type
system is both stricter than dart and more flexible. It catches more type
errors and generating typed wrappers to existing js libs is simpler. Even
scalajs makes it easier to wrap JavaScript. The current dart tooling is
painful in comparison. From the syntax needed to call js to the amount of
boilerplate for a wrapper.

Post by Roel Kersten
dont go for optimal js interoperability but rely on js generation (new
vm?), focus on mobile and developing usefull apis (nfc, wearables,
blockchain, etc). most important; be clear about short and long term
roadmap.
Op 1 sep. 2015 20:20 schreef "'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc" <
tldr: we love your feedback! Please lend us 2 minutes of your time and fill

Post by 'Seth Ladd' via Dart Misc
out this brief survey
<https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/forms/d/16owkvYu22Bbuqf8k7wrO1GRMV_2qyTltA5bWaso5DwQ/viewform>
.
Dartisans new and old, we want to hear from you! Never used Dart? You can
fill this out, too! (and it's even shorter for you :)
We know everyone is very busy, and we really appreciate your time.
On behalf of the Dart team, Thanks!
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Daniel Joyce

The meek shall inherit the Earth, for the brave will be among the stars.