[dart-misc] Dart 2.0 - Remove unethical development infrastructure

[Hayden Jones]

Slack is not open-source enough, and there are multiple alternatives.
(Mattermost, Rocket.chat, Zulip, etc)

I have been keeping an eye on Dart for quite some time now, but if the Dart
team continues to not show any interest in open-source development and
repels developers like me by using unethical platforms to conduct important
development conversations, I don't see any way that Dart can become truly
successful.

I've proposed this multiple times before, offered ideas to bridge the Slack
to irc, offered FOSS alternatives to Slack, etc, and I'm typically met with
remarks like "Well we already use Slack" which I assume means that FOSS
doesn't actually matter to the Dart team.

In other news, Scala.js is an absolute JOY to work with, and I've found it
to be quite a bit more productive than Typescript, once you get over the
initial learning curve. They conduct pretty much everything in Gitter
(FOSS, imagine that) and there's lots of helpful folks in the IRC that
constantly answer questions.

[Joel Trottier-Hébert]

https://gitter.im/orgs/dart-lang/rooms

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not open-source enough, and there are multiple alternatives.
(Mattermost, Rocket.chat, Zulip, etc)
I have been keeping an eye on Dart for quite some time now, but if the
Dart team continues to not show any interest in open-source development and
repels developers like me by using unethical platforms to conduct important
development conversations, I don't see any way that Dart can become truly
successful.
I've proposed this multiple times before, offered ideas to bridge the
Slack to irc, offered FOSS alternatives to Slack, etc, and I'm typically
met with remarks like "Well we already use Slack" which I assume means that
FOSS doesn't actually matter to the Dart team.
In other news, Scala.js is an absolute JOY to work with, and I've found it
to be quite a bit more productive than Typescript, once you get over the
initial learning curve. They conduct pretty much everything in Gitter
(FOSS, imagine that) and there's lots of helpful folks in the IRC that
constantly answer questions.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Why are they not listed when I search for "Rooms and People" for "dart"
I only get "dev_compiler" and "dart-lang/sdk" :-/
I haven't seen any announcement that these rooms were actually created and
search quite a few times since the discussion in Slack that there are plans
to create additional Gitter rooms.

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
https://gitter.im/orgs/dart-lang/rooms

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not open-source enough, and there are multiple alternatives.
(Mattermost, Rocket.chat, Zulip, etc)
I have been keeping an eye on Dart for quite some time now, but if the
Dart team continues to not show any interest in open-source development and
repels developers like me by using unethical platforms to conduct important
development conversations, I don't see any way that Dart can become truly
successful.
I've proposed this multiple times before, offered ideas to bridge the
Slack to irc, offered FOSS alternatives to Slack, etc, and I'm typically
met with remarks like "Well we already use Slack" which I assume means that
FOSS doesn't actually matter to the Dart team.
In other news, Scala.js is an absolute JOY to work with, and I've found
it to be quite a bit more productive than Typescript, once you get over the
initial learning curve. They conduct pretty much everything in Gitter
(FOSS, imagine that) and there's lots of helpful folks in the IRC that
constantly answer questions.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[tatumizer-v0.2]

Post by kc
A deeper is problem is with a lack of Openness generally.

My speculation is that due to constantly changing directions
(weather-related), dart is not able to formulate even a near-term plan.
There's nothing much to "open" then.

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
My speculation is that due to constantly changing directions
(weather-related), dart is not able to formulate even a near-term plan.
There's nothing much to "open" then.

For what it's worth, I think we change direction very infrequently and
pretty slowly. The VM not going into Chrome is obviously one big change,
and that has a lot of ripple effects. But, otherwise, our course is pretty
steady.

I think the main challenge is that we (and Google in general) have a
culture of not talking about things much until after they're done. We don't
want to make promises ahead of time. We'd rather under-promise and
over-deliver.

In general, I think that's good, but it means when we're working on large
things there can be radio silence for longer than our users would like.

Cheers!

– bob

[Danny Tuppeny]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
I think the main challenge is that we (and Google in general) have a
culture of not talking about things much until after they're done. We don't
want to make promises ahead of time. We'd rather under-promise and
over-deliver.

Personally I think this idea is a bit silly. It's not entirely the same but
Blizzard used to say this a lot about World of Warcraft dev ("we don't tell
you what we're thinking because if we change our minds you all get angry
and fill our forums with rants about how we promised it") but over time I
think they realised that more people were frustrated with not knowing what
was going on (and not being able to have input into it, which often
resulted in things being delivered badly and fixed up later when they
finally got feedback) than the few idiots that interpreted all ideas as
promises. Now they're pretty open; they post what they're thinking and if
they change their mind, they tend to explain why and there's little drama.

I understand that sometimes there are reasons to keep things quiet, but
generally I think talking about the direction sooner rather than later is
best; you'll get more feedback that'll help you make better decisions. A
small number of people might get upset if you change your mind but meh,
tough shit, nothing was ever promised and they're always a minority.

That said; in terms of Dart it doesn't seem to me there's much that goes on
behind closed doors (it's kinda hard when you're OSS!). Working on Dart
Code recently has really good; both VS Code and Dart are open and on GH and
reading through code to understand how things work and being able to raise
issues directly with devs is refreshing :-)

But... I did used to really enjoy reading everyones thoughts in the docs
about your meetings
<https://github.com/dart-lang/dart_enhancement_proposals>, what happened to
them? ;(

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Danny Tuppeny
But... I did used to really enjoy reading everyones thoughts in the docs
about your meetings
<https://github.com/dart-lang/dart_enhancement_proposals>, what happened
to them? ;(

They are on ice for now:

https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/misc/dep$20ice/misc/slFRFcBKxE0/gtICan1iBwAJ

We're playing with changes to our language development process to try to
make things simpler, faster, and more strategic. The DEP meetings seemed to
move really slowly and were at the mercy of whatever proposals made it our
way, which isn't a good way for us to be able to guide the overall
direction of the language.

We're still trying to figure out the best format and the best way to share
information. It's hard. Writing those meeting notes takes a *lot* of effort
and that's when the meetings were short and focused on very small issues.
When we have several hour discussions about stuff like the type system,
it's really really hard to crystallize that into something sharable.

Once stuff settles down more and we're back to changes that are more
evolutionary I expect will get back to a mode that's a little more formal
and written down.

Cheers!

– bob

[Danny Tuppeny]

Post by Danny Tuppeny
But... I did used to really enjoy reading everyones thoughts in the docs

Post by Danny Tuppeny
about your meetings
<https://github.com/dart-lang/dart_enhancement_proposals>, what happened
to them? ;(

https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/misc/dep$20ice/misc/slFRFcBKxE0/gtICan1iBwAJ
We're playing with changes to our language development process to try to
make things simpler, faster, and more strategic. The DEP meetings seemed to
move really slowly and were at the mercy of whatever proposals made it our
way, which isn't a good way for us to be able to guide the overall
direction of the language.
We're still trying to figure out the best format and the best way to share
information. It's hard. Writing those meeting notes takes a *lot* of
effort and that's when the meetings were short and focused on very small
issues. When we have several hour discussions about stuff like the type
system, it's really really hard to crystallize that into something sharable.

That all sounds valid :) but... I don't think all of the value was
necessarily from DEPs or even the detailed docs; I think just having an
idea of what's being talked about is really handy (if nothing else, it
gives us an idea of where to poke around on GitHub to better see what's
going on!). I think just periodic posts to this list with brief summaries
of what you've done/are doing would be really interesting for us (I guess
monthly standup where you're the pig and we're all chickens! ;))

[kc]

Apple/Swift and MS/C# have created open processes.

Swift and C# are both imo benevolent dictatorships - a clear sense of
leadership and direction with good user interaction. Chris Lattner and Mads
Torgersen have a great attitude. As does the leader of the wrenlang project.

This is different from the anarcho-shambles of TC39 and the festung-bunker
of TC52.

Fluttter has expressed interested in ergonomic 'value objects' - but there
is no 'concrete resolution' or progress. How many times has this been
raised on this group and over on the aborted core-dev?

What's different about Google. No need to re-invent the wheel. Use a C#
approach for Dart 2.0 and maybe a more formal Swift approach for Dart 3.0
onwards.

K.

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by Danny Tuppeny
But... I did used to really enjoy reading everyones thoughts in the docs
about your meetings
<https://github.com/dart-lang/dart_enhancement_proposals>, what happened
to them? ;(

https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/misc/dep$20ice/misc/slFRFcBKxE0/gtICan1iBwAJ
We're playing with changes to our language development process to try to
make things simpler, faster, and more strategic. The DEP meetings seemed to
move really slowly and were at the mercy of whatever proposals made it our
way, which isn't a good way for us to be able to guide the overall
direction of the language.
We're still trying to figure out the best format and the best way to share
information. It's hard. Writing those meeting notes takes a *lot* of
effort and that's when the meetings were short and focused on very small
issues. When we have several hour discussions about stuff like the type
system, it's really really hard to crystallize that into something sharable.
Once stuff settles down more and we're back to changes that are more
evolutionary I expect will get back to a mode that's a little more formal
and written down.
Cheers!
– bob

[Steve Lympany]

Yes, I too liked to nose around in those internal meetings docs
S

[tatumizer-v0.2]

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
When we have several hour discussions about stuff like the type system,

it's really really hard to crystallize that into something sharable.
Hmm... If you don't crystallize, then 2 weeks later, people will not
remember what the other guy said. I normally don't remember what I said
myself on the meeting and why. Meeting induces altered state of
consciousness in participants, which is impossible to reconstruct later.

[Jan Mostert]

Whatever is best for the language!
Keep up the good work!

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
When we have several hour discussions about stuff like the type system,

it's really really hard to crystallize that into something sharable.
Hmm... If you don't crystallize, then 2 weeks later, people will not
remember what the other guy said. I normally don't remember what I said
myself on the meeting and why. Meeting induces altered state of
consciousness in participants, which is impossible to reconstruct later.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Hayden Jones]

The first step is as simple as starting a bridge between Slack and IRC,
which has been advocated for multiple times for at least the past year, and
even that has still not been done.

Multiple times it's been made very clear that the Dart team has absolutely
no sense of urgency when it comes to making the Dart project more open.
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's not
open source. There are even open-source alternatives, which I've mentioned,
there are bridges that could be set up between Slack and IRC or Jabber, or
whatever new thing is out there, and the response is always "Yeah well, we
use Slack, so go fuck yourself"

It speaks volumes, and I think it's going to have a huge effect on people
when Google gets their shit together and starts asking people to come build
apps in a language that they worked very hard to keep out of.

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 1:38 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
My speculation is that due to constantly changing directions
(weather-related), dart is not able to formulate even a near-term plan.
There's nothing much to "open" then.

For what it's worth, I think we change direction very infrequently and
pretty slowly. The VM not going into Chrome is obviously one big change,
and that has a lot of ripple effects. But, otherwise, our course is pretty
steady.
I think the main challenge is that we (and Google in general) have a
culture of not talking about things much until after they're done. We don't
want to make promises ahead of time. We'd rather under-promise and
over-deliver.
In general, I think that's good, but it means when we're working on large
things there can be radio silence for longer than our users would like.
Cheers!
– bob
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Danny Tuppeny]

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's not
open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean that
people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or Google
Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are also
unethical?

There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say you
object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and to
call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.

[Jan Mostert]

Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a day on
Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this silly
demands of yours.

It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use, they're
open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no obligation
supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If you don't
like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you want. If
you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it there. I
personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.

If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack Channel
owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for that. If
it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and Gitter and
Slack will run separately, deal with it.

Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's
not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean that
people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or Google
Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are also
unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say you
object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and to
call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Hayden Jones]

Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge, and yet
there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a day on
Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this silly
demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use, they're
open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no obligation
supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If you don't
like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you want. If
you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it there. I
personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack Channel
owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for that. If
it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and Gitter and
Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's
not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean that
people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or Google
Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are also
unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say you
object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and to
call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge, and
yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference to "we
need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a day on
Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this silly
demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use, they're
open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no obligation
supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If you don't
like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you want. If
you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it there. I
personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack Channel
owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for that. If
it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and Gitter and
Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's
not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean
that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or
Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say you
object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and to
call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Hayden Jones]

That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about any
other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself to a
higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything about
it.

There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even think
of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge, and
yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference to "we
need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a day
on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this silly
demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use, they're
open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no obligation
supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If you don't
like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you want. If
you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it there. I
personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's
not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean
that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or
Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say you
object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and to
call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about any
other developers other than themselves.

Because it would be way too inefficient for Google to address wishes for
single users, doesn't mean they don't care.

Post by Hayden Jones
higher ethical standard than you do

This sounds quite arrogant. To me you are just inflexible.

Post by Hayden Jones
If I want to hold myself to a higher ethical standard than you do, you've
no right to do anything about it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even think
of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Considering how much noise you make for a feature that seems only to be
interesting to you personally, I assume

There is a massive group of JavaScript developers


means about 2 JS developers :D

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge, and
yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference to
"we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a day
on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this silly
demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since
it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean
that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or
Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say
you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and
to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
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[Lex Berezhny]

I suspect Hayden Jones is just trolling. Let's not feed the troll,
"scala.js is a much better offer anyways" or whatever, he can use that and
not have to put up with us unethical monsters, baby eaters and impure
proprietary software users/worshippers... may we rot in hell. Anyways, just
trying to match the tone of the discussion, maybe I over did it a bit...
maybe not... those free software evangelicals can get pretty hard core.

I have nothing against idealism but sometimes people put it into the most
absurd things and get carried away.

[Hayden Jones]

Yeah how dare people want other people to benefit from their work. Those
savages.

Post by Lex Berezhny
I suspect Hayden Jones is just trolling. Let's not feed the troll,
"scala.js is a much better offer anyways" or whatever, he can use that and
not have to put up with us unethical monsters, baby eaters and impure
proprietary software users/worshippers... may we rot in hell. Anyways, just
trying to match the tone of the discussion, maybe I over did it a bit...
maybe not... those free software evangelicals can get pretty hard core.
I have nothing against idealism but sometimes people put it into the most
absurd things and get carried away.
--
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[Steve Lympany]

Hello Hayden,

First - my position: retired, old, creaky mech engineer, not a proper
software engineer like the geniuses on these pages. Fortran 4, C....we
*paid* for those compilers in ye old days. So forgive me if I'm missing
something.

2014 - I had really no idea what a web app was, but wanted a play.
Discovered Dart, polymer etc etc, slack, S-O, these pages. All free!! I
would have cried in wonderment 20 years ago. My employers would have too.
Free support. Magic. Open source. We can download the Dart SDK and compile
it if we wish. How open is that? Totally appreciated by (nearly) all that
use it.

I assume you'll be offering your software likewise? It's the
morally-correct thing to do.

Anyway, why blow a gasket, you don't have to use dart.

Cheers
Steve

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about any
other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself to a
higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything about
it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even think
of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge, and
yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference to
"we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a day
on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this silly
demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since
it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean
that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or
Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say
you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and
to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Hayden Jones]

I'm not blowing a gasket. There is some fascination with my (alleged)
emotionality about this. I 100% do not care if Dart succeeds or not. Most
of my back end is Scala, my front end will eventually be all Scala.js, Dart
doesn't offer anything to me, for my project. So we can go ahead and move
on from that, because I really don't care about it in a personal way.

What I do care about is about Dart in a PLT sense. Optional types done
well, the Mirror API, that sort of thing is fascinating to me and one of
the big early victories I think Dart had was pursuing standardization
through ECMA. It's a very smart move, and ultimately if Dart proves it's
worth I'm sure a more capable team will form and re-implement, since
there's a standard.

When my software is completed, it will be absolutely free to anybody who
wants to use it, and the entirety of my project utilizes NO unethical
software. I mainly use Gedit and Emacs, both great open source tools, and I
develop on Debian, a fantastic open-source distro. My stack is ethical.
Dart's isn't. I understand that Dartisans are upset that I'm bringing this
up, but I'm not wrong, and I'm not emotional about it, I'm just bringing it
to the attention of the wider Dart audience who might not realize they're
taking part in something that is objectively unethical.

Post by Steve Lympany
Hello Hayden,
First - my position: retired, old, creaky mech engineer, not a proper
software engineer like the geniuses on these pages. Fortran 4, C....we
*paid* for those compilers in ye old days. So forgive me if I'm missing
something.
2014 - I had really no idea what a web app was, but wanted a play.
Discovered Dart, polymer etc etc, slack, S-O, these pages. All free!! I
would have cried in wonderment 20 years ago. My employers would have too.
Free support. Magic. Open source. We can download the Dart SDK and compile
it if we wish. How open is that? Totally appreciated by (nearly) all that
use it.
I assume you'll be offering your software likewise? It's the
morally-correct thing to do.
Anyway, why blow a gasket, you don't have to use dart.
Cheers
Steve

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about any
other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself to a
higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything about
it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even
think of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge, and
yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference to
"we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a day
on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this silly
demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since
it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean
that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or
Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say
you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and
to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Filipe Morgado]

... and one of the big early victories I think Dart had was pursuing
standardization through ECMA. It's a very smart move, and ultimately if
Dart proves it's worth I'm sure a more capable team will form and
re-implement, since there's a standard.
...

Regarding Dart being an ECMA standard ... That was a smart move if, and
only if, Dart was to be integrated into Chrome.
So other web players could participate as well.
A lot of things have changed since then and now ECMA only slows things down.

If the Dart team made the choice to abandon ECMA, it would maybe be seen,
from the outside, as a step backwards.
Personally, I would see it as two steps forward and would eliminate a lot
of bureaucracy from the evolution process.

I don't see any other relevant programming language (besides JS of course)
being dependent on an external committee.

I won't bother commenting on other topics discussed here as it seems pretty
futile.

[Filipe Morgado]

I'm out to other forums to bash the hell out of languages I don't use.

[Günter Zöchbauer]

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 11:23:35 PM UTC+2, Hayden Jones wrote:

My stack is ethical. Dart's isn't. I understand that Dartisans are upset

that I'm bringing this up

I'm not upset about this at all. Opinions don't upset me. What upsets me is
that you make accusations just because you want to get your way.
What upsets me is that you demand from the Dart team to spend time on work
that doesn't provide much value to the community.
The number of people you claim would benefit from this work is quite
exaggerated.
In my opinion what you do here is quite unethical and therefore your
emphasis of what you find ethical isn't to credible to me.

Post by Steve Lympany
Hello Hayden,
First - my position: retired, old, creaky mech engineer, not a proper
software engineer like the geniuses on these pages. Fortran 4, C....we
*paid* for those compilers in ye old days. So forgive me if I'm missing
something.
2014 - I had really no idea what a web app was, but wanted a play.
Discovered Dart, polymer etc etc, slack, S-O, these pages. All free!! I
would have cried in wonderment 20 years ago. My employers would have too.
Free support. Magic. Open source. We can download the Dart SDK and compile
it if we wish. How open is that? Totally appreciated by (nearly) all that
use it.
I assume you'll be offering your software likewise? It's the
morally-correct thing to do.
Anyway, why blow a gasket, you don't have to use dart.
Cheers
Steve

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about
any other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself to a
higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything about
it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even
think of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge,
and yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference to
"we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a
day on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this
silly demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since
it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean
that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or
Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say
you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and
to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Hayden Jones]

Multiple times over the past year I've advocated for a Slack->IRC bridge to
be implemented, I've been advised not to do it myself for legal reasons so
I've expected that the Dart team would do it, since it's literally one
plugin to install in Slack, and that the Dart project already has an
official IRC channel. That's like 90% of the work right there, and yet it
still hasn't been done.

Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable fact.
Developing open source software with closed source software is unethical.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
My stack is ethical. Dart's isn't. I understand that Dartisans are upset

that I'm bringing this up

I'm not upset about this at all. Opinions don't upset me. What upsets me
is that you make accusations just because you want to get your way.
What upsets me is that you demand from the Dart team to spend time on work
that doesn't provide much value to the community.
The number of people you claim would benefit from this work is quite
exaggerated.
In my opinion what you do here is quite unethical and therefore your
emphasis of what you find ethical isn't to credible to me.

Post by Steve Lympany
Hello Hayden,
First - my position: retired, old, creaky mech engineer, not a proper
software engineer like the geniuses on these pages. Fortran 4, C....we
*paid* for those compilers in ye old days. So forgive me if I'm missing
something.
2014 - I had really no idea what a web app was, but wanted a play.
Discovered Dart, polymer etc etc, slack, S-O, these pages. All free!! I
would have cried in wonderment 20 years ago. My employers would have too.
Free support. Magic. Open source. We can download the Dart SDK and compile
it if we wish. How open is that? Totally appreciated by (nearly) all that
use it.
I assume you'll be offering your software likewise? It's the
morally-correct thing to do.
Anyway, why blow a gasket, you don't have to use dart.
Cheers
Steve

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about
any other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself to a
higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything about
it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even
think of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge,
and yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference to
"we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a
day on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this
silly demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since
it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also
mean that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software)
or Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say
you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and
to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/da
rtlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Nigel Magnay]

Where may I download the sourcecode to github ?

Post by Hayden Jones
Multiple times over the past year I've advocated for a Slack->IRC bridge
to be implemented, I've been advised not to do it myself for legal reasons
so I've expected that the Dart team would do it, since it's literally one
plugin to install in Slack, and that the Dart project already has an
official IRC channel. That's like 90% of the work right there, and yet it
still hasn't been done.
Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable
fact. Developing open source software with closed source software is
unethical.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
My stack is ethical. Dart's isn't. I understand that Dartisans are upset

that I'm bringing this up

I'm not upset about this at all. Opinions don't upset me. What upsets me
is that you make accusations just because you want to get your way.
What upsets me is that you demand from the Dart team to spend time on
work that doesn't provide much value to the community.
The number of people you claim would benefit from this work is quite
exaggerated.
In my opinion what you do here is quite unethical and therefore your
emphasis of what you find ethical isn't to credible to me.

Post by Steve Lympany
Hello Hayden,
First - my position: retired, old, creaky mech engineer, not a proper
software engineer like the geniuses on these pages. Fortran 4, C....we
*paid* for those compilers in ye old days. So forgive me if I'm
missing something.
2014 - I had really no idea what a web app was, but wanted a play.
Discovered Dart, polymer etc etc, slack, S-O, these pages. All free!! I
would have cried in wonderment 20 years ago. My employers would have too.
Free support. Magic. Open source. We can download the Dart SDK and compile
it if we wish. How open is that? Totally appreciated by (nearly) all that
use it.
I assume you'll be offering your software likewise? It's the
morally-correct thing to do.
Anyway, why blow a gasket, you don't have to use dart.
Cheers
Steve

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about
any other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself to a
higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything about
it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even
think of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge,
and yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference
to "we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a
day on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this
silly demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since
it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also
mean that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software)
or Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to
say you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent
and to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
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[Hayden Jones]

Most of github's infratstructure is closed-source. They have a couple
interesting repos on https://github.com/github but I recommend GitLab for a
more ethical experience.

Post by Nigel Magnay
Where may I download the sourcecode to github ?

Post by Hayden Jones
Multiple times over the past year I've advocated for a Slack->IRC bridge
to be implemented, I've been advised not to do it myself for legal reasons
so I've expected that the Dart team would do it, since it's literally one
plugin to install in Slack, and that the Dart project already has an
official IRC channel. That's like 90% of the work right there, and yet it
still hasn't been done.
Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable
fact. Developing open source software with closed source software is
unethical.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
My stack is ethical. Dart's isn't. I understand that Dartisans are upset

that I'm bringing this up

I'm not upset about this at all. Opinions don't upset me. What upsets me
is that you make accusations just because you want to get your way.
What upsets me is that you demand from the Dart team to spend time on
work that doesn't provide much value to the community.
The number of people you claim would benefit from this work is quite
exaggerated.
In my opinion what you do here is quite unethical and therefore your
emphasis of what you find ethical isn't to credible to me.

Post by Steve Lympany
Hello Hayden,
First - my position: retired, old, creaky mech engineer, not a proper
software engineer like the geniuses on these pages. Fortran 4, C....we
*paid* for those compilers in ye old days. So forgive me if I'm
missing something.
2014 - I had really no idea what a web app was, but wanted a play.
Discovered Dart, polymer etc etc, slack, S-O, these pages. All free!! I
would have cried in wonderment 20 years ago. My employers would have too.
Free support. Magic. Open source. We can download the Dart SDK and compile
it if we wish. How open is that? Totally appreciated by (nearly) all that
use it.
I assume you'll be offering your software likewise? It's the
morally-correct thing to do.
Anyway, why blow a gasket, you don't have to use dart.
Cheers
Steve

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care about
any other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself to a
higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything about
it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even
think of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC bridge,
and yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it, because
whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care about
Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My love is
just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference
to "we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half a
day on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this
silly demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons,
since it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also
mean that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software)
or Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to
say you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent
and to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
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[Kasper Peulen]

This is all about slack? For what it is worth, I believe slack is here
mainly because of the community wanted it. It was created for the dart
summit, and I think Seth Ladd was actually thinking about closing it
afterwards if not the community asked for it to stay open because they like
it so much better than IRC. Before that, the only chat was on IRC, and it
was very unactive. IRC is not from this time, you want a chat that
automatically saves history and has markdown support out of the box.

Gitter may be a better option, I heard that this is being considered?

Anyway, slack is I believe only there because of request from the
community, nothing serious about the direction of the dart team is
discussed there. I dont see the problems you are describing. If you like
scala, use scala.

Post by Hayden Jones
Most of github's infratstructure is closed-source. They have a couple
interesting repos on https://github.com/github but I recommend GitLab for
a more ethical experience.

Post by Nigel Magnay
Where may I download the sourcecode to github ?

Post by Hayden Jones
Multiple times over the past year I've advocated for a Slack->IRC bridge
to be implemented, I've been advised not to do it myself for legal reasons
so I've expected that the Dart team would do it, since it's literally one
plugin to install in Slack, and that the Dart project already has an
official IRC channel. That's like 90% of the work right there, and yet it
still hasn't been done.
Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable
fact. Developing open source software with closed source software is
unethical.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer
My stack is ethical. Dart's isn't. I understand that Dartisans are

upset that I'm bringing this up

I'm not upset about this at all. Opinions don't upset me. What upsets
me is that you make accusations just because you want to get your way.
What upsets me is that you demand from the Dart team to spend time on
work that doesn't provide much value to the community.
The number of people you claim would benefit from this work is quite
exaggerated.
In my opinion what you do here is quite unethical and therefore your
emphasis of what you find ethical isn't to credible to me.

Post by Steve Lympany
Hello Hayden,
First - my position: retired, old, creaky mech engineer, not a proper
software engineer like the geniuses on these pages. Fortran 4, C....we
*paid* for those compilers in ye old days. So forgive me if I'm
missing something.
2014 - I had really no idea what a web app was, but wanted a play.
Discovered Dart, polymer etc etc, slack, S-O, these pages. All free!! I
would have cried in wonderment 20 years ago. My employers would have too.
Free support. Magic. Open source. We can download the Dart SDK and compile
it if we wish. How open is that? Totally appreciated by (nearly) all that
use it.
I assume you'll be offering your software likewise? It's the
morally-correct thing to do.
Anyway, why blow a gasket, you don't have to use dart.
Cheers
Steve

Post by Hayden Jones
That's exactly what I was talking about. Dart team doesn't care
about any other developers other than themselves. If I want to hold myself
to a higher ethical standard than you do, you've no right to do anything
about it.
There is a massive group of JavaScript developers that will not even
think of touching dart unless more effort is made to make it as open and
inclusive as possible. You can spin my words as much as you want, I think
scala.js is a much better offer anyways, but it seems a shame given all the
work that's been done and some the people involved. I've long been a fan of
gilad's work and I can't accurately portray the sheer disappointment I have
about how darts development has gone so far.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Seems like it was made real clear that we need a Slack->IRC
bridge, and yet there still is not one. I am absolutely not going to do it,
because whomever runs the slack is probably a lawsuit-happy maniac. I care
about Dart, but I don't care about it "get sued and go to jail" much. My
love is just not that strong.

You have made it clear that you want it. That is quite a difference
to "we need it"

Post by Hayden Jones

Post by Jan Mostert
Dear Hayden Jones, we've already discussed this for almost half
a day on Slack and now you're spamming the mailing list as well with this
silly demands of yours.
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use,
they're open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no
obligation supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven. If
you don't like Slack or Gitter, feel free to support Dart on wherever you
want. If you want to see Dart discussion via IRC, be the one that runs it
there. I personally don't use IRC and will continue using Slack.
If you want to bridge Slack to IRC, get in contact with the Slack
Channel owner and setup an IRC/XMPP bridge and no, you won't get sued for
that. If it can't be done for whatever reason, then that's it, IRC and
Gitter and Slack will run separately, deal with it.
Stop making drama please!

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons,
since it's not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also
mean that people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software)
or Google Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are
also unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to
say you object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent
and to call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
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--
Kasper

[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Hayden Jones
Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable
fact. Developing open source software with closed source software is
unethical.

Ethical and measureable - I assume that is supposed to be a joke :D

[Joel Trottier-Hébert]

lol I thought the same.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable
fact. Developing open source software with closed source software is
unethical.

Ethical and measureable - I assume that is supposed to be a joke :D
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[Greg Lusk]

Same here. This thread has shown up in my Spam box several times. I agree
that we shouldn't feed trolls and move on.

Post by Joel Trottier-Hébert
lol I thought the same.

Post by Günter Zöchbauer

Post by Hayden Jones
Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable
fact. Developing open source software with closed source software is
unethical.

Ethical and measureable - I assume that is supposed to be a joke :D
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[Ованес]

Post by Jan Mostert
It's simple, Google is building Dart for their own internal use, they're

open sourcing it since that is how they roll. Google has no obligation
supporting anything anywhere, it's purely community driven.

Yes, I agree, Google did not obligated anything to anyone.
And I agree that Google is building Dart for their own internal use but not
for all.

[Hayden Jones]

Gmail isn't an open source programming language.

I guess more specifically I am against closed source, proprietary software
when used to develop open source software.

Post by Danny Tuppeny

Post by Hayden Jones
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's
not open source.

If the Dart Team are unethical for using Slack, would that also mean that
people using Gmail (which is closed source proprietary software) or Google
Groups (also, I presume, closed source proprietary software) are also
unethical?
There are many reasons to use other services over Slack; but to say you
object to using closed-source software seems somewhat inconsistent and to
call anyone that does unethical seems rather ridiculous.
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[Günter Zöchbauer]

Post by Hayden Jones
The first step is as simple as starting a bridge between Slack and IRC,
which has been advocated for multiple times for at least the past year, and
even that has still not been done.
Multiple times it's been made very clear that the Dart team has absolutely
no sense of urgency when it comes to making the Dart project more open.
Lots of people are unable to use Slack for ethical reasons, since it's not
open source. There are even open-source alternatives, which I've mentioned,
there are bridges that could be set up between Slack and IRC or Jabber, or
whatever new thing is out there, and the response is always "Yeah well, we
use Slack, so go fuck yourself"
It speaks volumes, and I think it's going to have a huge effect on people
when Google gets their shit together and starts asking people to come build
apps in a language that they worked very hard to keep out of.

Your request is just about that **you** have a wish and now you come up
with all kinds of pretty weird reasons to make it look like the community
wants or needs this.

Post by Hayden Jones
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 1:38 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc

Post by tatumizer-v0.2
My speculation is that due to constantly changing directions
(weather-related), dart is not able to formulate even a near-term plan.
There's nothing much to "open" then.

For what it's worth, I think we change direction very infrequently and
pretty slowly. The VM not going into Chrome is obviously one big change,
and that has a lot of ripple effects. But, otherwise, our course is pretty
steady.
I think the main challenge is that we (and Google in general) have a
culture of not talking about things much until after they're done. We don't
want to make promises ahead of time. We'd rather under-promise and
over-deliver.
In general, I think that's good, but it means when we're working on large
things there can be radio silence for longer than our users would like.
Cheers!
– bob
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[Danny Tuppeny]

but if the Dart team continues to not show any interest in open-source
development

Dart is open source? <https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk>

If OSS companies should not use closed-source services to communicate with
users then presumably they shouldn't be using GitHub, twitter, or
responding to questions on StackOverflow?

Also; if you want to change something, calling the people who can make the
decision "unethical" (unjustly) probably isn't going to help the cause!

[Hayden Jones]

I don't particularly care if Dart changes or not. There are more effective
tools available, but it seems like such a shame.

Post by Danny Tuppeny

but if the Dart team continues to not show any interest in open-source
development

Dart is open source? <https://github.com/dart-lang/sdk>
If OSS companies should not use closed-source services to communicate with
users then presumably they shouldn't be using GitHub, twitter, or
responding to questions on StackOverflow?
Also; if you want to change something, calling the people who can make the
decision "unethical" (unjustly) probably isn't going to help the cause!
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[kc]

A deeper is problem is with a lack of Openness generally.

The are another couple of pointless discussions on this group re named
params & constructors which will go no where.

Frustrating for devs who may be interested in Flutter/Fuchsia as well as
the renewed Web story with Angular 2.0 going its own way.

K.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not open-source enough, and there are multiple alternatives.
(Mattermost, Rocket.chat, Zulip, etc)
I have been keeping an eye on Dart for quite some time now, but if the
Dart team continues to not show any interest in open-source development and
repels developers like me by using unethical platforms to conduct important
development conversations, I don't see any way that Dart can become truly
successful.
I've proposed this multiple times before, offered ideas to bridge the
Slack to irc, offered FOSS alternatives to Slack, etc, and I'm typically
met with remarks like "Well we already use Slack" which I assume means that
FOSS doesn't actually matter to the Dart team.
In other news, Scala.js is an absolute JOY to work with, and I've found it
to be quite a bit more productive than Typescript, once you get over the
initial learning curve. They conduct pretty much everything in Gitter
(FOSS, imagine that) and there's lots of helpful folks in the IRC that
constantly answer questions.

[krupal shah]

Kotlin does the same in forums. Jetbrains takes feedback for every improvment in the language even before it is implemented. Thats why working with this kind of environment is a joy. Dart, and also Google is not open about discussing what should be the next.

[Matthew Butler]

Well, I certainly can't imagine how you are getting any programming done
with Scala/Scala.js when you're trying to save the world from "unethical"
Open Source projects. You show no interest in using Dart, contributing to
Dart or otherwise interact. Why are you not making the same claims on the
GoLang Gopher slack? Or saving Rust and Kotlin from their proprietary
github ways? And of course TypeScript.

You say you've been advised, for legal reasons, not to create the IRC
bridge yourself. Yet you expect Google and/or the Dart team to shoulder
that burden on your behalf? As has been pointed out time and time again,
IRC is a dying medium [1], you're solo quest to save it by any means
necessary is not endearing you to the Dart community.

If you truly feel there are issues with Dart's implementation, feel free to
file a bug at: http://dartbug.com

As for Dart's success. If developers, such as yourself, who refused to use
"unethical platforms" were the majority of developers, we really wouldn't
be having this conversation at all. So to believe that Dart's success or
popularity hinges on your support is egotistical at best. The Dart team is
doing its best to make Dart accessible to the majority of developers. They
can't please everyone. That is visible right from the initial language
design. They have an IRC channel, they have a Slack channel. The users
decide which they would rather use.
Similar happened prior to the Google Code service shut down, it was
reviewed if decided that moving to Github (over say GitLab / Atlassian /
BitBucket) because that's where the developers were. Official Google+ and
twitter accounts, but no Diaspora account. (Okay, Granted the Google+ one
was probably due to Google products should have a Google+ account as an
internal decree of some sort when it launched).

I understand your need to feel righteous in all things FOSS only and don't
dare do anything proprietary. And if that works for you, then great. But as
for the rest of the world, don't expect everyone to bend over backwards
because of what you feel is ethical.

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Hi,

I think we can all agree that this thread is not measurably improving the
quality of anyone's life.

Hayden, I see that our selection of chat infrastructure is important to
you, but that you also don't feel comfortable directly working to change
it. Both of those are entirely reasonable viewpoints for you to have. It
seems like your only recourse would be to persuade others to do that work
on your behalf, but it also doesn't like you've been successful at that.

Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still treat
each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most important* to
do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many more mistakes when
someone is on "our side".

In the meantime, I'll also note that this list is primarily targeted
towards people interested in the Dart programming language and has several
thousand members. When posting, try to consider whether most of those
potential readers would find what you're writing helpful and relevant to
their interests. As stuff veers away from the nuts and bolts of evolving
and using the language, the chance that it's annoying noise to many readers
increases.

Cheers!

– bob

Post by Matthew Butler
Well, I certainly can't imagine how you are getting any programming done
with Scala/Scala.js when you're trying to save the world from "unethical"
Open Source projects. You show no interest in using Dart, contributing to
Dart or otherwise interact. Why are you not making the same claims on the
GoLang Gopher slack? Or saving Rust and Kotlin from their proprietary
github ways? And of course TypeScript.
You say you've been advised, for legal reasons, not to create the IRC
bridge yourself. Yet you expect Google and/or the Dart team to shoulder
that burden on your behalf? As has been pointed out time and time again,
IRC is a dying medium [1], you're solo quest to save it by any means
necessary is not endearing you to the Dart community.
If you truly feel there are issues with Dart's implementation, feel free
to file a bug at: http://dartbug.com
As for Dart's success. If developers, such as yourself, who refused to use
"unethical platforms" were the majority of developers, we really wouldn't
be having this conversation at all. So to believe that Dart's success or
popularity hinges on your support is egotistical at best. The Dart team is
doing its best to make Dart accessible to the majority of developers. They
can't please everyone. That is visible right from the initial language
design. They have an IRC channel, they have a Slack channel. The users
decide which they would rather use.
Similar happened prior to the Google Code service shut down, it was
reviewed if decided that moving to Github (over say GitLab / Atlassian /
BitBucket) because that's where the developers were. Official Google+ and
twitter accounts, but no Diaspora account. (Okay, Granted the Google+ one
was probably due to Google products should have a Google+ account as an
internal decree of some sort when it launched).
I understand your need to feel righteous in all things FOSS only and don't
dare do anything proprietary. And if that works for you, then great. But as
for the rest of the world, don't expect everyone to bend over backwards
because of what you feel is ethical.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[Hayden Jones]

Are you saying that whether or not people WANT to read this thread reflects
on whether this is ethical or not? I'm not honestly sure, but I think you'd
realize how ridiculous that is, if it is indeed the case.

There have been 0 propositions that refute the lack of ethicality that I've
presented. I've tried to do this the best that I can, and 100% of the
responses are just "Shut up, nobody cares about your stupid ETHICS, you
don't even use Dart so we don't care" which is LITERALLY the antithesis of
""" Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still
treat each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most important* to
do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many more mistakes when
someone is on "our side". """

I didn't force anybody to read this thread. Nobody forced me write it.

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Hi,
I think we can all agree that this thread is not measurably improving the
quality of anyone's life.
Hayden, I see that our selection of chat infrastructure is important to
you, but that you also don't feel comfortable directly working to change
it. Both of those are entirely reasonable viewpoints for you to have. It
seems like your only recourse would be to persuade others to do that work
on your behalf, but it also doesn't like you've been successful at that.
Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still treat
each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most important* to
do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many more mistakes when
someone is on "our side".
In the meantime, I'll also note that this list is primarily targeted
towards people interested in the Dart programming language and has several
thousand members. When posting, try to consider whether most of those
potential readers would find what you're writing helpful and relevant to
their interests. As stuff veers away from the nuts and bolts of evolving
and using the language, the chance that it's annoying noise to many readers
increases.
Cheers!
– bob

Post by Matthew Butler
Well, I certainly can't imagine how you are getting any programming done
with Scala/Scala.js when you're trying to save the world from "unethical"
Open Source projects. You show no interest in using Dart, contributing to
Dart or otherwise interact. Why are you not making the same claims on the
GoLang Gopher slack? Or saving Rust and Kotlin from their proprietary
github ways? And of course TypeScript.
You say you've been advised, for legal reasons, not to create the IRC
bridge yourself. Yet you expect Google and/or the Dart team to shoulder
that burden on your behalf? As has been pointed out time and time again,
IRC is a dying medium [1], you're solo quest to save it by any means
necessary is not endearing you to the Dart community.
If you truly feel there are issues with Dart's implementation, feel free
to file a bug at: http://dartbug.com
As for Dart's success. If developers, such as yourself, who refused to
use "unethical platforms" were the majority of developers, we really
wouldn't be having this conversation at all. So to believe that Dart's
success or popularity hinges on your support is egotistical at best. The
Dart team is doing its best to make Dart accessible to the majority of
developers. They can't please everyone. That is visible right from the
initial language design. They have an IRC channel, they have a Slack
channel. The users decide which they would rather use.
Similar happened prior to the Google Code service shut down, it was
reviewed if decided that moving to Github (over say GitLab / Atlassian /
BitBucket) because that's where the developers were. Official Google+ and
twitter accounts, but no Diaspora account. (Okay, Granted the Google+ one
was probably due to Google products should have a Google+ account as an
internal decree of some sort when it launched).
I understand your need to feel righteous in all things FOSS only and
don't dare do anything proprietary. And if that works for you, then great.
But as for the rest of the world, don't expect everyone to bend over
backwards because of what you feel is ethical.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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"Dart Misc" group.
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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[Joel Trottier-Hébert]

Can you please elaborate on this:

Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable fact.
Developing open source software with closed source software is unethical.

I don't get it.

Thanks.

Post by Hayden Jones
Are you saying that whether or not people WANT to read this thread
reflects on whether this is ethical or not? I'm not honestly sure, but I
think you'd realize how ridiculous that is, if it is indeed the case.
There have been 0 propositions that refute the lack of ethicality that
I've presented. I've tried to do this the best that I can, and 100% of the
responses are just "Shut up, nobody cares about your stupid ETHICS, you
don't even use Dart so we don't care" which is LITERALLY the antithesis of
""" Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still
treat each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most
important* to do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many more
mistakes when someone is on "our side". """
I didn't force anybody to read this thread. Nobody forced me write it.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Hi,
I think we can all agree that this thread is not measurably improving the
quality of anyone's life.
Hayden, I see that our selection of chat infrastructure is important to
you, but that you also don't feel comfortable directly working to change
it. Both of those are entirely reasonable viewpoints for you to have. It
seems like your only recourse would be to persuade others to do that work
on your behalf, but it also doesn't like you've been successful at that.
Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still treat
each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most important*
to do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many more mistakes when
someone is on "our side".
In the meantime, I'll also note that this list is primarily targeted
towards people interested in the Dart programming language and has several
thousand members. When posting, try to consider whether most of those
potential readers would find what you're writing helpful and relevant to
their interests. As stuff veers away from the nuts and bolts of evolving
and using the language, the chance that it's annoying noise to many readers
increases.
Cheers!
– bob

Post by Matthew Butler
Well, I certainly can't imagine how you are getting any programming done
with Scala/Scala.js when you're trying to save the world from "unethical"
Open Source projects. You show no interest in using Dart, contributing to
Dart or otherwise interact. Why are you not making the same claims on the
GoLang Gopher slack? Or saving Rust and Kotlin from their proprietary
github ways? And of course TypeScript.
You say you've been advised, for legal reasons, not to create the IRC
bridge yourself. Yet you expect Google and/or the Dart team to shoulder
that burden on your behalf? As has been pointed out time and time again,
IRC is a dying medium [1], you're solo quest to save it by any means
necessary is not endearing you to the Dart community.
If you truly feel there are issues with Dart's implementation, feel free
to file a bug at: http://dartbug.com
As for Dart's success. If developers, such as yourself, who refused to
use "unethical platforms" were the majority of developers, we really
wouldn't be having this conversation at all. So to believe that Dart's
success or popularity hinges on your support is egotistical at best. The
Dart team is doing its best to make Dart accessible to the majority of
developers. They can't please everyone. That is visible right from the
initial language design. They have an IRC channel, they have a Slack
channel. The users decide which they would rather use.
Similar happened prior to the Google Code service shut down, it was
reviewed if decided that moving to Github (over say GitLab / Atlassian /
BitBucket) because that's where the developers were. Official Google+ and
twitter accounts, but no Diaspora account. (Okay, Granted the Google+ one
was probably due to Google products should have a Google+ account as an
internal decree of some sort when it launched).
I understand your need to feel righteous in all things FOSS only and
don't dare do anything proprietary. And if that works for you, then great.
But as for the rest of the world, don't expect everyone to bend over
backwards because of what you feel is ethical.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Michael Francis]

This is just absolutely silly.

Post by Hayden Jones
Dart is objectively unethical, it's not my OPINION, it's a measurable
fact. Developing open source software with closed source software is
unethical.
I don't get it.
Thanks.

Post by Hayden Jones
Are you saying that whether or not people WANT to read this thread
reflects on whether this is ethical or not? I'm not honestly sure, but I
think you'd realize how ridiculous that is, if it is indeed the case.
There have been 0 propositions that refute the lack of ethicality that
I've presented. I've tried to do this the best that I can, and 100% of the
responses are just "Shut up, nobody cares about your stupid ETHICS, you
don't even use Dart so we don't care" which is LITERALLY the antithesis of
""" Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still
treat each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most
important* to do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many more
mistakes when someone is on "our side". """
I didn't force anybody to read this thread. Nobody forced me write it.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Hi,
I think we can all agree that this thread is not measurably improving
the quality of anyone's life.
Hayden, I see that our selection of chat infrastructure is important to
you, but that you also don't feel comfortable directly working to change
it. Both of those are entirely reasonable viewpoints for you to have. It
seems like your only recourse would be to persuade others to do that work
on your behalf, but it also doesn't like you've been successful at that.
Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still
treat each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most
important* to do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many
more mistakes when someone is on "our side".
In the meantime, I'll also note that this list is primarily targeted
towards people interested in the Dart programming language and has several
thousand members. When posting, try to consider whether most of those
potential readers would find what you're writing helpful and relevant to
their interests. As stuff veers away from the nuts and bolts of evolving
and using the language, the chance that it's annoying noise to many readers
increases.
Cheers!
– bob
On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Matthew Butler <

Post by Matthew Butler
Well, I certainly can't imagine how you are getting any programming
done with Scala/Scala.js when you're trying to save the world from
"unethical" Open Source projects. You show no interest in using Dart,
contributing to Dart or otherwise interact. Why are you not making the same
claims on the GoLang Gopher slack? Or saving Rust and Kotlin from their
proprietary github ways? And of course TypeScript.
You say you've been advised, for legal reasons, not to create the IRC
bridge yourself. Yet you expect Google and/or the Dart team to shoulder
that burden on your behalf? As has been pointed out time and time again,
IRC is a dying medium [1], you're solo quest to save it by any means
necessary is not endearing you to the Dart community.
If you truly feel there are issues with Dart's implementation, feel
free to file a bug at: http://dartbug.com
As for Dart's success. If developers, such as yourself, who refused to
use "unethical platforms" were the majority of developers, we really
wouldn't be having this conversation at all. So to believe that Dart's
success or popularity hinges on your support is egotistical at best. The
Dart team is doing its best to make Dart accessible to the majority of
developers. They can't please everyone. That is visible right from the
initial language design. They have an IRC channel, they have a Slack
channel. The users decide which they would rather use.
Similar happened prior to the Google Code service shut down, it was
reviewed if decided that moving to Github (over say GitLab / Atlassian /
BitBucket) because that's where the developers were. Official Google+ and
twitter accounts, but no Diaspora account. (Okay, Granted the Google+ one
was probably due to Google products should have a Google+ account as an
internal decree of some sort when it launched).
I understand your need to feel righteous in all things FOSS only and
don't dare do anything proprietary. And if that works for you, then great.
But as for the rest of the world, don't expect everyone to bend over
backwards because of what you feel is ethical.
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
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--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to
http://www.dartbug.com/new
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[Matthew Butler]

Post by Hayden Jones
Are you saying that whether or not people WANT to read this thread
reflects on whether this is ethical or not? I'm not honestly sure, but I
think you'd realize how ridiculous that is, if it is indeed the case.
I don't think anyone at any point said this. What was said, is that this

group is for individuals who want to discuss the Dart Programming Language.
Not a debate on FOSS ethics and how they tie to various discussion
platforms.

Post by Hayden Jones
There have been 0 propositions that refute the lack of ethicality that
I've presented.

It's very difficult to refute something that the vast majority of
individuals don't see an issue with. Allow me to presumptuously state, that
I am not indicating people see no problems with "lack of ethics in the Dart
communications mediums". Rather, people do not see a lack of ethics in the
first place. If you feel it is unethical to use Stack Overflow, Slack,
GitHub, etc, that is you're *personal* belief. My personal belief is that
there is absolutely no ethical concerns regarding the medium I use to
communicate. I also have no issues with eating meat for instance. There are
organizations and movements throughout the world who certainly do have
issues with not only their own consumption of meat but mine as well. That I
am unethical for it. But simply because they feel it is unethical does not
make it so, just as Dart, Golang, Rust, Kotlin and so many other open
source projects using Slack, StackOverflow and GitHub does not make them
unethical because you believe it so.

Post by Hayden Jones
I've tried to do this the best that I can,

No, as Bob mentioned, you have done all you can to insist how everyone else
must do it, but you personally have done very little. I have been able to
uncover 0 issues/bugs with a Pull Request or in place configuration or
software to implement your desired values. Rather you've been indignant and
abrasive when your views weren't met with wide accepts.

Post by Hayden Jones
and 100% of the responses are just "Shut up, nobody cares about your
stupid ETHICS, you don't even use Dart so we don't care"

To be honest, I believe most of the emphasis has been on the word "your",
not on "ethics" (nor the adjective "stupid" at all.)

Post by Hayden Jones
which is LITERALLY the antithesis of """ Everyone else, remember that
even when we disagree, we should still treat each other with compassion and
respect. In fact it is *most important* to do so when we disagree. We're
willing to forgive many more mistakes when someone is on "our side". """

This reminder came after the myriad of other responses, which is perhaps
why this was made. Because Bob most likely sensed hostility in responses
and wanted to remind everyone in the community (as a Google team member,
he's more or less a community leader even if not in an official sense).

Post by Hayden Jones
I didn't force anybody to read this thread. Nobody forced me write it.

In your own words "I think you'd realize how ridiculous that is". You write
very opinionated message, specifically calling Dart development unethical
in the subject line to a large group of individuals who receive the
messages because of their interest in Dart and Dart Development. You then
claim you forced no one to read it. That's akin to standing nude in the
middle of town square and when you get a ticket for public indecency,
stating that you didn't force anyone to look at you, that its not your
fault people happened to see you naked.

As has been stated before, the IRC channel is already available and is an
option for all members of the Dart community, Gitter.im is a recently added
option, though at this point not widely adopted either. You are asking the
Dart team to dictate what people's preference must be to suit your personal
belief system. Meanwhile the community has made its choice based on what
the best fit for them is. Personally, I'm a member of 6 different slack
teams, for open source and closed source projects. Were it to come to the
point where Slack team for Dart shut down, there's a strong likelihood that
I would not install a separate application just for Dart communications,
and certainly wouldn't use yet another browser tab in my already
overwhelmed browsers. Is losing contributors to the community (as well as
to the Dart SDK itself) worth Dart meeting your ethical standards? As
you've stated, you have no interest in Dart's success whatsoever.

Post by Hayden Jones
On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 12:59 PM, 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc <

Post by 'Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc
Hi,
I think we can all agree that this thread is not measurably improving the
quality of anyone's life.
Hayden, I see that our selection of chat infrastructure is important to
you, but that you also don't feel comfortable directly working to change
it. Both of those are entirely reasonable viewpoints for you to have. It
seems like your only recourse would be to persuade others to do that work
on your behalf, but it also doesn't like you've been successful at that.
Everyone else, remember that even when we disagree, we should still treat
each other with compassion and respect. In fact it is *most important*
to do so when we disagree. We're willing to forgive many more mistakes when
someone is on "our side".
In the meantime, I'll also note that this list is primarily targeted
towards people interested in the Dart programming language and has several
thousand members. When posting, try to consider whether most of those
potential readers would find what you're writing helpful and relevant to
their interests. As stuff veers away from the nuts and bolts of evolving
and using the language, the chance that it's annoying noise to many readers
increases.
Cheers!
– bob

Post by Matthew Butler
Well, I certainly can't imagine how you are getting any programming done
with Scala/Scala.js when you're trying to save the world from "unethical"
Open Source projects. You show no interest in using Dart, contributing to
Dart or otherwise interact. Why are you not making the same claims on the
GoLang Gopher slack? Or saving Rust and Kotlin from their proprietary
github ways? And of course TypeScript.
You say you've been advised, for legal reasons, not to create the IRC
bridge yourself. Yet you expect Google and/or the Dart team to shoulder
that burden on your behalf? As has been pointed out time and time again,
IRC is a dying medium [1], you're solo quest to save it by any means
necessary is not endearing you to the Dart community.
If you truly feel there are issues with Dart's implementation, feel free
to file a bug at: http://dartbug.com
As for Dart's success. If developers, such as yourself, who refused to
use "unethical platforms" were the majority of developers, we really
wouldn't be having this conversation at all. So to believe that Dart's
success or popularity hinges on your support is egotistical at best. The
Dart team is doing its best to make Dart accessible to the majority of
developers. They can't please everyone. That is visible right from the
initial language design. They have an IRC channel, they have a Slack
channel. The users decide which they would rather use.
Similar happened prior to the Google Code service shut down, it was
reviewed if decided that moving to Github (over say GitLab / Atlassian /
BitBucket) because that's where the developers were. Official Google+ and
twitter accounts, but no Diaspora account. (Okay, Granted the Google+ one
was probably due to Google products should have a Google+ account as an
internal decree of some sort when it launched).
I understand your need to feel righteous in all things FOSS only and
don't dare do anything proprietary. And if that works for you, then great.
But as for the rest of the world, don't expect everyone to bend over
backwards because of what you feel is ethical.
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For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
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[Warren]

Without piling on, I will note that Gitter now has several Dart discussions:

https://gitter.im/dart-lang/TALK-general

As far as I know, there was never an "official" Google policy of using
Slack. Folks gravitated to it
because it has a nice UI, and everyone else is there. i.e. it was the best
place to get help.

Gitter has come a long way, and I think the UI is pretty much on par with
Slack.
The best way to convince people to use it is to start posting questions
(and answers!) to that forum.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not open-source enough, and there are multiple alternatives.
(Mattermost, Rocket.chat, Zulip, etc)
I have been keeping an eye on Dart for quite some time now, but if the
Dart team continues to not show any interest in open-source development and
repels developers like me by using unethical platforms to conduct important
development conversations, I don't see any way that Dart can become truly
successful.
I've proposed this multiple times before, offered ideas to bridge the
Slack to irc, offered FOSS alternatives to Slack, etc, and I'm typically
met with remarks like "Well we already use Slack" which I assume means that
FOSS doesn't actually matter to the Dart team.
In other news, Scala.js is an absolute JOY to work with, and I've found it
to be quite a bit more productive than Typescript, once you get over the
initial learning curve. They conduct pretty much everything in Gitter
(FOSS, imagine that) and there's lots of helpful folks in the IRC that
constantly answer questions.

[Filipe Morgado]

If I understand the thread correctly, the arguments which make Slack
"unethical" also apply to Gitter (and Github ... and Google Groups).

I never used Slack or Gitter, so I can't compare them. But both are free,
functional and both are just a means to an end.
I don't think we should impose a migration on all users if there's no real
benefit.

Post by Warren
https://gitter.im/dart-lang/TALK-general
As far as I know, there was never an "official" Google policy of using
Slack. Folks gravitated to it
because it has a nice UI, and everyone else is there. i.e. it was the best
place to get help.
Gitter has come a long way, and I think the UI is pretty much on par with
Slack.
The best way to convince people to use it is to start posting questions
(and answers!) to that forum.

Post by Hayden Jones
Slack is not open-source enough, and there are multiple alternatives.
(Mattermost, Rocket.chat, Zulip, etc)
I have been keeping an eye on Dart for quite some time now, but if the
Dart team continues to not show any interest in open-source development and
repels developers like me by using unethical platforms to conduct important
development conversations, I don't see any way that Dart can become truly
successful.
I've proposed this multiple times before, offered ideas to bridge the
Slack to irc, offered FOSS alternatives to Slack, etc, and I'm typically
met with remarks like "Well we already use Slack" which I assume means that
FOSS doesn't actually matter to the Dart team.
In other news, Scala.js is an absolute JOY to work with, and I've found
it to be quite a bit more productive than Typescript, once you get over the
initial learning curve. They conduct pretty much everything in Gitter
(FOSS, imagine that) and there's lots of helpful folks in the IRC that
constantly answer questions.