[dart-misc] [dart-announce] Announcing Dart 2: Optimized for Client-Side Development

['Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements]

Today, we’re announcing Dart 2, a reboot of the language to embrace our
vision of Dart: as a language uniquely optimized for client-side
development for web and mobile.

See our Medium post
<https://medium.com/@asandholm/announcing-dart-2-80ba01f43b6> for the full
announcement.
--
Anders Sandholm, Product Manager, Dart
--
For more news and information, visit https://plus.google.com/+dartlang

To join the conversation, visit https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/

[Jonathan Rezende]

\o/

Atenciosamente,

Jonathan Rezende

Today, we’re announcing Dart 2, a reboot of the language to embrace our vision of Dart: as a language uniquely optimized for client-side development for web and mobile.
--
Anders Sandholm, Product Manager, Dart
--
For more news and information, visit https://plus.google.com/+dartlang <https://plus.google.com/+dartlang>
To join the conversation, visit https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/>
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/ <https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/>
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart <http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart>
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new <http://www.dartbug.com/new>
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dart Misc" group.

[Michael Francis]

YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Jonathan Rezende
\o/
Atenciosamente,
Jonathan Rezende
Em 22 de fev de 2018, à(s) 17:13, 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements
Today, we’re announcing Dart 2, a reboot of the language to embrace our
vision of Dart: as a language uniquely optimized for client-side
development for web and mobile.
See our Medium post
full announcement.
--
Anders Sandholm, Product Manager, Dart
--
For more news and information, visit https://plus.google.com/+dartlang
To join the conversation, visit https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Michael Francis
solariumvr.com

[k***@gmail.com]

I was out of loop for a while so excuse me if this is a repeat. For
context, do you have a roadmap for Dart on server side/standalone VM?
Sounds like the vision is to focus on client-side development then how much
effort, if any, will be invested in standalone VM?

Thanks,
Kurman


On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 at 12:13 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements <

Post by 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements
Today, we’re announcing Dart 2, a reboot of the language to embrace our
vision of Dart: as a language uniquely optimized for client-side
development for web and mobile.
See our Medium post
full announcement.
--
Anders Sandholm, Product Manager, Dart
--
For more news and information, visit https://plus.google.com/+dartlang
To join the conversation, visit https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Announcements" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Michael Francis]

"Dart on server side/standalone VM" What exactly is everyone looking for
with this. Dart on the server works perfectly fine and improvements to the
language and VM for Client side development will only improve the
performance and developer story on the server.

I think what most people are looking for is a database connection library
or large framework. There's no reason this needs to come from the core Dart
team. These tools aren't made by the core teams of other languages so why
should Dart be any different? Example, the node.js team doesn't create the
Sequelize library. One could argue that Dart comes with more out of the box
features for server side development than most other languages.

Post by k***@gmail.com
I was out of loop for a while so excuse me if this is a repeat. For
context, do you have a roadmap for Dart on server side/standalone VM?
Sounds like the vision is to focus on client-side development then how much
effort, if any, will be invested in standalone VM?
Thanks,
Kurman
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 at 12:13 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements <

Post by 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements
Today, we’re announcing Dart 2, a reboot of the language to embrace our
vision of Dart: as a language uniquely optimized for client-side
development for web and mobile.
See our Medium post
full announcement.
--
Anders Sandholm, Product Manager, Dart
--
For more news and information, visit https://plus.google.com/+dartlang
To join the conversation, visit https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/

---

Post by 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Announcements" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Michael Francis
solariumvr.com

[k***@gmail.com]

Just to clarify, I was asking about the roadmap and vision (forward looking
vs status quo).

-K

Post by Michael Francis
"Dart on server side/standalone VM" What exactly is everyone looking for
with this. Dart on the server works perfectly fine and improvements to the
language and VM for Client side development will only improve the
performance and developer story on the server.
I think what most people are looking for is a database connection library
or large framework. There's no reason this needs to come from the core Dart
team. These tools aren't made by the core teams of other languages so why
should Dart be any different? Example, the node.js team doesn't create the
Sequelize library. One could argue that Dart comes with more out of the box
features for server side development than most other languages.

Post by k***@gmail.com
I was out of loop for a while so excuse me if this is a repeat. For
context, do you have a roadmap for Dart on server side/standalone VM?
Sounds like the vision is to focus on client-side development then how much
effort, if any, will be invested in standalone VM?
Thanks,
Kurman
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 at 12:13 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements <

Post by 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements
Today, we’re announcing Dart 2, a reboot of the language to embrace our
vision of Dart: as a language uniquely optimized for client-side
development for web and mobile.
See our Medium post
full announcement.
--
Anders Sandholm, Product Manager, Dart
--
For more news and information, visit https://plus.google.com/+dartlang
To join the conversation, visit
https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/

---

Post by 'Anders Sandholm' via Dart Announcements
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Dart Announcements" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

--

For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/

Post by k***@gmail.com
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Post by k***@gmail.com
"Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

--
Michael Francis
solariumvr.com
--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Sean McCleary]

I was also surprised that the Dart 2 announcement didn't even mention the server. I know it focuses on differences introduced in Dart 2, but the announcement will get a lot of interest and someone reading it and coming to the language for the first time would walk away from that not even knowing that server side Dart is a thing. But oh well. It's announcing the changes in Dart 2, not Dart in general, I guess.

I think it makes people with an interest in server-side Dart nervous to keep hearing it described as a client-side language at DartCon, and now this announcement.

Congrats to all on Dart 2.0. I love the language, the tooling, the libraries. I'm going to run right out upgrade.

[Andrew Skalkin]

Post by Michael Francis
I think what most people are looking for is a database connection library

or large framework. There's no reason this needs to come from the core Dart
team.

Let me disagree with that. The core classes and interfaces have to come
from the core Dart team, otherwise there will be no standard, every single
library will use its own API (or there will be competing sets of API), and
there will be no ability to polymorphycally use implementations. Both Java
and .NET understood it, both came up with a standard set of classes that
can be extended by the db drivers, and the ecosystems flourished. Developer
love it since you just learn JDBC/ADO.NET once, and use the same API
against different databases. DB vendors love it because it's a well-defined
set of classes and interfaces that they need to develop their drivers
against.

It's really a win-win-win for everyone involved, but the first step needs
to be taken by the Dart team.

[Matan Lurey]

Post by Michael Francis
I think what most people are looking for is a database connection

library or large framework. There's no reason this needs to come from the
core Dart team.
Let me disagree with that. The core classes and interfaces have to come
from the core Dart team, otherwise there will be no standard, every single
library will use its own API (or there will be competing sets of API), and
there will be no ability to polymorphycally use implementations.

Is that true?

The "node" team never shipped database APIs, yet nodejs is one of the most
popular platforms for creating server-side applications.

I'd rather see the Dart community that *uses* server-side Dart (we, the
Dart team, do not use it much outside of internal tooling) decide what the
best practices, interfaces, and drivers should do, rather than try and
figure it out given that we don't use this platform ourselves.

Both Java and .NET understood it, both came up with a standard set of
classes that can be extended by the db drivers, and the ecosystems
flourished. Developer love it since you just learn JDBC/ADO.NET once, and
use the same API against different databases. DB vendors love it because
it's a well-defined set of classes and interfaces that they need to develop
their drivers against.
It's really a win-win-win for everyone involved, but the first step needs
to be taken by the Dart team.

Full stop I can say this is extremely unlikely anytime soon. But I'd love
to see more of the community work together on this project, and I suspect
many on the Dart team would love to support (code reviews, answer
questions, help with testing, etc).

--
For other discussions, see https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/
For HOWTO questions, visit http://stackoverflow.com/tags/dart
To file a bug report or feature request, go to http://www.dartbug.com/new
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Dart Misc" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

[Andrew Skalkin]

Post by Matan Lurey

Post by Michael Francis
I think what most people are looking for is a database connection

library or large framework. There's no reason this needs to come from the
core Dart team.
Let me disagree with that. The core classes and interfaces have to come
from the core Dart team, otherwise there will be no standard, every single
library will use its own API (or there will be competing sets of API), and
there will be no ability to polymorphycally use implementations.

Is that true?
The "node" team never shipped database APIs, yet nodejs is one of the most
popular platforms for creating server-side applications.

Honestly, after having used JDBC and ADO.NET (especially C#'s LINQ) what
Node offers is a complete disaster. Yes it got popular due to millions of
JS developers, but you can do a lot better with Dart!

[tatumizer-v0.2]

IMO, the only realistic way for dart to obtain reliable DB drivers is to
write java2dart compiler.
See also this
thread: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/misc/YfDzBjaP5Xw
Lots of open source JDBC drivers are available, equipped with test suites.

And this issue goes much further than JDBC.
BTW, user-facing API can be made completely different from JDBC (via dart
wrappers), so no API copyright issue here IMO.

[Sean McCleary]

Post by Matan Lurey
The "node" team never shipped database APIs, yet nodejs is one of the most
popular platforms for creating server-side applications.

Yeah I'd be hesitant to look to node and JavaScript in general as an
example of how to do it right. I suspect a lot of people come to dart to
escape the chaotic JavaScript ecosphere. It's true of me. I'd rather have
the big-brotherly guiding hand of Java or .NET than the ever-changing
JavaScript framework-of-the-week. One of the things I love about Dart is
the massive, useful library and officially-sanctioned packages it has.
It's why I prefer it over TypeScript. I'd like to see even more of an iron
fist from Dart's competent creators.

I'd rather see the Dart community that *uses* server-side Dart (we, the

Post by Matan Lurey
Dart team, do not use it much outside of internal tooling) decide what the
best practices, interfaces, and drivers should do, rather than try and
figure it out given that we don't use this platform ourselves.

That'd be cool too. Kind of like PHP's PSR efforts for framework
interoperability. It's community-driven, and has tamed a lot of the babel.

Sean

['Bob Nystrom' via Dart Misc]

Post by Matan Lurey

Post by Michael Francis
I think what most people are looking for is a database connection

library or large framework. There's no reason this needs to come from the
core Dart team.
Let me disagree with that. The core classes and interfaces have to come
from the core Dart team, otherwise there will be no standard, every single
library will use its own API (or there will be competing sets of API), and
there will be no ability to polymorphycally use implementations.

Is that true?
The "node" team never shipped database APIs, yet nodejs is one of the most
popular platforms for creating server-side applications.

The key difference is that JS is untyped, so you can have polymorphic APIs
— i.e. two unrelated DB packages that implement the same interface —
without needing those packages to agree on a single third package / core
library that defines that DB interface. As long as they expose the same
methods, it works.

With a nominally typed language, those two packages need to *declare* they
implement the same API and that API needs to be defined somewhere. Defining
it in the core libraries is a great way to encourage strong consensus
towards that being the canonical type all DB implementations support, but
it's not the *only* to get that consensus. Strong communities, good
communication, and great API design can also get a third party API to
become canonical. See, for example, the Rack protocol in Ruby-land.

There are downsides to being in the core libraries too — core APIs are
*really* hard to evolve. So, often you can get stuck with an API that is
the best way we knew to solve some problem twenty years ago. As they say in
Python, "core is where libraries go to die".

Cheers!

– bob

[Frank Rollpin]

Congrats on the release, fantastic work!

As well as few posters before me, I am surprised that the server-side story
is not mentioned, as this is truly a killer feature for building complex
applications. Of course there is some room for improvement (db interfaces
similar to JDBC or ADO.NET, etc), but it is extremely valuable even the way
it is now. Personally, I would not have even given Dart a chance 5 years
ago if not for the server story that offers code reuse, sane language and
high-performance VM.

['Kevin Moore' via Dart Misc]

We're super excited about folking using Dart on the server. We think it's
critical to have a focus – and for now it's client development.

There are many community members pushing Dart server support – we're even
using it on the Dart Package site <https://pub.dartlang.org/>.

If you'd like to chat w/ more folks using Dart on the server, I recommend
spending time at https://gitter.im/dart-lang/server

Post by Frank Rollpin
Congrats on the release, fantastic work!
As well as few posters before me, I am surprised that the server-side
story is not mentioned, as this is truly a killer feature for building
complex applications. Of course there is some room for improvement (db
interfaces similar to JDBC or ADO.NET, etc), but it is extremely valuable
even the way it is now. Personally, I would not have even given Dart a
chance 5 years ago if not for the server story that offers code reuse, sane
language and high-performance VM.

[Sean McCleary]

I think everyone understands that the focus is client-side, and isn't
expressing any concern about that at all. Just that it seems like a lot of
material lately has described Dart in ways which give the impression that
it is a client-side-only language. Given that, along with Google's
reputation for dropping products early and often, it's understandable that
someone with an interest in server-side Dart may have gotten jumpy. It's
nice of the Dart team to chime in and assuage those fears. So I think
everyone here, or on Gitter, or somewhere with contact to the Dart team,
understands that the value of server-side dart still exists.

I'd suggest thinking, in promotional material, whether or not it might give
the misleading impression that Dart is a client-side-only language. It
sounds like people are chiming in and saying that, lately at least, it
does. And like Frank expressed, if it hadn't been clear to me a couple
years ago that dart was a client+server language, I personally wouldn't
have given it a second look, because code re-use between the client and
server is a massive value proposition. To think that there are people out
with needs like mine and Frank's there who might not realize how awesome
Dart is because only the client-side is even _mentioned_ makes me sad.

Again, great work Dart folks. Still loving it.

Post by 'Kevin Moore' via Dart Misc
We're super excited about folking using Dart on the server. We think it's
critical to have a focus – and for now it's client development.
There are many community members pushing Dart server support – we're even
using it on the Dart Package site <https://pub.dartlang.org/>.
If you'd like to chat w/ more folks using Dart on the server, I recommend
spending time at https://gitter.im/dart-lang/server

Post by Frank Rollpin
Congrats on the release, fantastic work!
As well as few posters before me, I am surprised that the server-side
story is not mentioned, as this is truly a killer feature for building
complex applications. Of course there is some room for improvement (db
interfaces similar to JDBC or ADO.NET, etc), but it is extremely
valuable even the way it is now. Personally, I would not have even given
Dart a chance 5 years ago if not for the server story that offers code
reuse, sane language and high-performance VM.