[dart-misc] Dart and Java

[kc]

Looks like Dart is shifting more to the Java rather than JS end of the
spectrum. (Whilst keeping first class functions and nice literals from JS).

There's a lot of Java out there. Especially on Android.

For Dart 2.0 would a Java source to Dart source converter be possible.
Would liberate a lot of Java code and offer an exit from Java (which isn't
open).

K.

[j***@gmail.com]

Rather use Java bytecode, then other JVM languages can use it as well.

Kotlin to Dart would be really nice!


From: kc

Sent: Tuesday, 21 February, 17:48

Subject: [dart-misc] Dart and Java

To: Dart Misc



Looks like Dart is shifting more to the Java rather than JS end of the spectrum. (Whilst keeping first class functions and nice literals from JS).



There's a lot of Java out there. Especially on Android.



For Dart 2.0 would a Java source to Dart source converter be possible. Would liberate a lot of Java code and offer an exit from Java (which isn't open).



K.
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Post by kc
Looks like Dart is shifting more to the Java rather than JS end of the
spectrum. (Whilst keeping first class functions and nice literals from JS).

By "Java", here do you really mean *Java specifically* or just as a proxy
for "statically-typed language with objects and classes".

I do agree that we are leaning more towards static types than when we
initially launched. At 1.0, our goal was to sit halfway between dynamic and
static typing and attract users from both ends of the spectrum to the table.

Over the past several years, almost all of the users have come from the
static typing end and really like static types, so we've been shifting in
that direction.

(I think this also reflects larger trends in languages. Dart launched
shortly after "peak dynamic types" where Ruby, CoffeeScript, and Clojure
were the hot tickets. Since then, all of the newer exciting languages are
statically typed, sometimes very much so: TypeScript, Rust, Swift.)

I don't think we are moving towards *Java specifically* any more than we
are moving towards C#, C++, Swift, etc. Dart is already fairly Java-esque
syntactically and somewhat semantically, but I don't think that's increased
over the years.

There's a lot of Java out there. Especially on Android.

Post by kc
For Dart 2.0 would a Java source to Dart source converter be possible.
Would liberate a lot of Java code and offer an exit from Java (which isn't
open).

That is something we've talked about off and on over the years. Like most
things in languages, the devil is in the details. Java's number story is
different. Its generics are very different. Java has nested classes, Dart
has functions and variables that are not in classes at all. The privacy
stories are very different.

It's probably feasible (and the value proposition of doing so is real!),
but it would be tricky.

Cheers!

– bob

[kc]

Specifically only for Java. Not C#, Kotli n, Swift or any other classy static lang. Just Java source - not byte code.

In fact it is so desirable maybe Dart 2.0 could be designed partially with this goal in mind. So much code/algorithms is locked up in Java.

Give Devs an evolutionary exit from Java. Especially on Android.

K.

[Lyra Chord]

IMO dart will not, and will do not.

Indeed for most programming languages there is a strong need to change its
syntax by users, because its syntax was tightly bound to preferences of
designers, and thousands people have thousands flavors, and and you may not
like what I like.
What's more, most students learned a not-so-brilliant way to handle syntax
and semantics in CS lessons.

So if dart does open compiler interface, there must be a sight that many
people use themself dialects, abiet dart syntax grow great.
AIK, the only candidate syntax structure is Object Notation.

Bytecode style is not the option. A running process generates class
structures and then converts it to a pile of dead bytes, then these dead
bytes read by the vm and the vm generates class structures again. Sigh!
(BTW so jvm indy implementation is so pile of s*)

After compiler interface opened, the optimization is open to global
intelligence as well.

Looks like Dart is shifting more to the Java rather than JS end of the

Post by kc
spectrum. (Whilst keeping first class functions and nice literals from JS).
There's a lot of Java out there. Especially on Android.
For Dart 2.0 would a Java source to Dart source converter be possible.
Would liberate a lot of Java code and offer an exit from Java (which isn't
open).
K.

[kc]

Not sure what you meant.

My take on things is this:

Go
Java *NewLang* JS
GWT

Google could use a New Language which takes the best features of the above
and dumps the cruft and where:

Java source can be converted automatically to NewLang
NewLang compiles to Java Byte Code and JS.
NewLang compiles down to own native Runtime optimized for modern mobile
hardware (see Fuchsia).
The NewLang Runtime has a first class async/concurrency story like Go.

K.

Post by Lyra Chord
IMO dart will not, and will do not.
Indeed for most programming languages there is a strong need to change its
syntax by users, because its syntax was tightly bound to preferences of
designers, and thousands people have thousands flavors, and and you may not
like what I like.
What's more, most students learned a not-so-brilliant way to handle syntax
and semantics in CS lessons.
So if dart does open compiler interface, there must be a sight that many
people use themself dialects, abiet dart syntax grow great.
AIK, the only candidate syntax structure is Object Notation.
Bytecode style is not the option. A running process generates class
structures and then converts it to a pile of dead bytes, then these dead
bytes read by the vm and the vm generates class structures again. Sigh!
(BTW so jvm indy implementation is so pile of s*)
After compiler interface opened, the optimization is open to global
intelligence as well.
Looks like Dart is shifting more to the Java rather than JS end of the

Post by kc
spectrum. (Whilst keeping first class functions and nice literals from JS).
There's a lot of Java out there. Especially on Android.
For Dart 2.0 would a Java source to Dart source converter be possible.
Would liberate a lot of Java code and offer an exit from Java (which isn't
open).
K.

[kc]

Looks like Kotlin is having a go at the Google NewLang space.

K.

Post by kc
Not sure what you meant.
Go
Java *NewLang* JS
GWT
Google could use a New Language which takes the best features of the above
Java source can be converted automatically to NewLang
NewLang compiles to Java Byte Code and JS.
NewLang compiles down to own native Runtime optimized for modern mobile
hardware (see Fuchsia).
The NewLang Runtime has a first class async/concurrency story like Go.
K.

Post by Lyra Chord
IMO dart will not, and will do not.
Indeed for most programming languages there is a strong need to change
its syntax by users, because its syntax was tightly bound to preferences of
designers, and thousands people have thousands flavors, and and you may not
like what I like.
What's more, most students learned a not-so-brilliant way to handle
syntax and semantics in CS lessons.
So if dart does open compiler interface, there must be a sight that many
people use themself dialects, abiet dart syntax grow great.
AIK, the only candidate syntax structure is Object Notation.
Bytecode style is not the option. A running process generates class
structures and then converts it to a pile of dead bytes, then these dead
bytes read by the vm and the vm generates class structures again. Sigh!
(BTW so jvm indy implementation is so pile of s*)
After compiler interface opened, the optimization is open to global
intelligence as well.
Looks like Dart is shifting more to the Java rather than JS end of the

Post by kc
spectrum. (Whilst keeping first class functions and nice literals from JS).
There's a lot of Java out there. Especially on Android.
For Dart 2.0 would a Java source to Dart source converter be possible.
Would liberate a lot of Java code and offer an exit from Java (which isn't
open).
K.