are completely *unlike *other thread synchronization mechanisms. They
primitives. I don't know much about Spring actors so I'm not sure how they
might deviate from that.
- Remote actors would take work...
- The Dart team likes to keep the SDK libraries skinny. It makes
or 4 times, one for each platform. So you're not likely to get Actors as an
SDK class. There was work on an Actor library on Github
- Take Isolates for a spin and see if they'll work for you.
Post by Joao PedrosaHi,
Post by Nicolas OcquidantWhat I wanted to say is: is Dart really a server side programming
language? Personally, I would be very happy to see Dart as a "concurrent"
of Go...
There are different branches of server-side languages. Dart doesn't fit
all of them or perhaps any of them particularly well, in my opinion.
Say regarding databases, Dart has had support for accessing PostgreSQL
since a long time ago with the help of a community project. But Postgres is
just one out of many that Dart would have needed to have support for. In
Ruby over a decade ago, I practiced with accessing over 10 different
database systems using all kinds of diverse drivers. Including the more
generic ODBC approach. Ruby had drivers for many of them, even if not all
of the drivers was advanced enough. I accessed for example Oracle, SQL
Server, MySQL and many others.
One of the big challenges for languages like Ruby and Dart is
cross-platform support. Windows being a huge problem to have support for,
given that many other OSs have POSIX compliance and on Windows it's not a
given, even if there are alternatives like Cygwin and MinGW. While Windows
is not always used for the deployment part, it's often used for the
development part, and languages that don't offer something for development
on Windows may lag behind others in popularity.
Dart is a language that uses C++ at its core. C++ is an abstraction
layer over the more common C. C++ may require a compiler system that is
heavier and less available for free. On Windows that would often be the
Visual Studio toolset. Nowadays there is also the LLVM. C++ can take a
while longer to compile when compared to C, and establishing the necessary
dependencies can be a little harder with C++, given that the compiler may
need more information about the types before it's happy. Languages that
avoided using C++ and stuck with C had it a bit easier in some regards. One
of the advantages that a language has by sticking it closer to C is that
they can access APIs in C libraries. In Ruby, that would often be database
drivers and image processing libraries.
JavaScript with the Node.js project has picked up on the server-side
despite being C++ at its core, as it's based around the V8 JavaScript VM
which is written in C++. Somehow folks have decided to compromise and
support Node.js, even if the language may be lacking in some regards. One
of the things that JavaScript has and that Dart does not have as easily is
a dynamic system around late binding calls. In Dart, the compiler checks
for things that in JavaScript they have to cope with at runtime instead.
Many server-side frameworks take advantage of this late binding calling, as
they generate code at runtime for database access and templates and so on.
While JavaScript may have imperfect introspection and reflection
capabilities, in Dart we would avoid using the Mirrors system as in the
case of deployment it could have an impact in code size. In JavaScript,
they have no choice. Lack of choice = lack of worry.
In Go they also have reflection for their server-side frameworks, but in
Go it may be a little bit more complex with their compiler doing some extra
stuff when it can. One of the differences between a language like Go and
scripting languages like JavaScript is that in Go you can create a
deployment package that is minimal with just the executable file. While the
binary file of Go may be bigger than they would have wanted it to be at
times, it would still be less than packaging up a scripting language's VM
with all of its core libraries and so on together with the application
files. Some people prefer to have a language like Go when generating their
deployment files, whereas others would be OK with a Node.js-like system
that ships with everything under the sun. In Dart we have a bit of both.
The Dart VM would still be a separate file, with other dependency libraries
in C/C++ on their separate files as well.
If the Dart VM had been made popular by virtue of being in the browser,
selling it on the server-side would have been a non-issue. It would have
competed with Node.js on the server at some point. As it is, Node.js is
expanding into territory that once belonged to languages like Java instead.
Node.js is at times as cross-platform as Java is. With Microsoft supporting
Node.js on Windows. Before Microsoft took a liking of Node.js, Microsoft
also used to support languages like Perl and Python on Windows.
Cheers,
Joao
Post by Nicolas OcquidantPost by Kévin PlatelI don't see how, in the VM and language level, they can make Dart 2.0
a significantly better choice for server development ? the improvement
done for the tools chains will benefit all the platform as a better
language and a quicker VM.
But I may don't have the experience to see what missing for Dart on
the server side to really shine
Post by Nicolas OcquidantYes indeed. But I have the impression that server side dev will not
be the main focus for Dart 2.0... So personnally, I would hesitate invest
lots of my time in building a Dart microservice "chain". But maybe I am
wrong...
PS I remember Gilad Bracha talking of Actors in one of its very
interesting videos. Is the current implemented solution in Dart
satisfactory? What is next ? Is there a 'next' planned?
Post by Kévin PlatelI think this could be an interesting project to create some
framework server/service oriented, but before achieve something like Spring
it will take sometime x) and maybe more mature library on the server side
Good luck with Go =) its a very fun language too
Post by Nicolas OcquidantYes you are probably right. I was thinking of a more integrated way
of doing it, a la Spring Cloud. Maybe I will learn Go anyway ;)
Thanks,
Post by Kévin PlatelI have actually implemented the micro-service architecture with
Dart, and it's not fully-integrated-full-project-with-one-line ;) but
separating part exist and it's very easy to use them with Dart
- Kong for a API Agteway : https://getkong.org/
- etcd for key/value storage : https://github.com/coreos/etcd
https://www.rabbitmq.com/
https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/dart_amqp)
So you don't have to wait Dart 2.0 to start micro service, the
performance of the VM is great enough now
Hello,
Post by Kévin PlatelPost by Nicolas OcquidantFrom previous posts, it looks like Dart 2.0 will focus mobile
platforms (flutter). Can we also expect some advances regarding
microservices (or maybe "actors").
Coming from Java / Spring Cloud
<http://projects.spring.io/spring-cloud/> (very great by the
way, but Java/JVM is little bit heavy), I wonder if my next language will
be Go (with go-kit?).
I like Dart a lot and it is also closer to Java than Go... So
just asking ;)
Thanks for your great work
--nick
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